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sodium methylate again????
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I am looking for a formula to use 30% sodium methylate. I make 240 gallon (907L) batches using 48 gal. (181L) of methanol. Titration is 1 1/2 to 2 NaoH. So the question is, how much 30% sodium methylate do I put in the methoxide mixing tank before adding the methanol?

Any formula needs to be simple without to many squiggly symbols and curly lines. I understand + - x = and I think a mole is mouse looking thing. So talk slow please. Smile
 
Location: Virginia | Registered: March 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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i was just reading a lot about this on the UK veggie forums. seems pretty easy but i have 45 pounds of lye to go through. sorry, don't know the formula.
this should get you what you need
http://www.vegetableoildiesel....488&page=2#pid346820
 
Location: northeast ohio | Registered: January 26, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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FF;
get a hold of Andy at RolfQuo. He is a blending chemist and has produced mucho biodiesel, although not with sodium methylate, but I know he looked into it. You can PM me for his email and or phone number.



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Location: :-) Great White North eh ? | Registered: December 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The best way I have found to do this is to titrate with a .4% sodium methylate and water solution instead of a 1g/L NaOH solution.

Add 4mL of 30% sodium methylate to 996mL of distilled water. Use this to titrate 1 mL of oil to phenolphthalein end point. Multiply the mL of titration solution added by 4 to get the mL of 30% NaMeth per L of oil.

I use 22mL of NaMeth per liter for the base, but I have 25%, so you should use 18.5mL/L as your base.

If N is the mL of NaMeth per liter of oil needed and T is the mL of Titration solution added, your equation is

N = 18.5+T*4

When you do this you can cut down your methanol, because the NaMeth has methanol.

Assuming 20% methanol usage, if M is the amount of methanol you need to add in mL/L

M=200-N*.7 (I know this isn't exact because the .7 is 70% by weight, not volume, but its close enough.)
 
Registered: September 16, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Using a litre unit of volume I've simplified the rather long winded formula to a very simple one.

Base (I use 4.5g/ltr) + titration x 5 x batch volume in ltr = ml required. (US gall = 3.78ltr).

E.g. 4.5 + 3 x 5 x 200ltr = 7500ml

There's quite a few home brewers using 30% Anhydrous Sodium Methylate over here, it's easy to use and in our opinion much safer, no dissolving flake or pearl, no heat, no mixing, vastly reduced soaps and greater yields.

Put your measure of ASM into the methoxide vessel and top up with methanol and it's ready for use.

We also reduce the methanol volume by the ASM volume so less methanol is used, we also reclaim the the methanol from the ASM so it win win win.

Please have a look at the No Titration method currently being used here, we're getting first timers producing perfect 3/27, you use far less catalyst, up to 30%, and methanol, as low as 16%. I'm only using 10% virgin meth per batch.
 
Location: Suffolk, UK | Registered: November 08, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Thanks for all the good info. Looking forward to trying something new.
 
Location: Virginia | Registered: March 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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quote:
Originally posted by fuelfarmer:
Thanks for all the good info. Looking forward to trying something new.


Once you try it you'll not want to go back to NaOH or KOH, some here have said irrespective of cost they wouldn't return to solids.

Go for it and enjoy the experience.
 
Location: Suffolk, UK | Registered: November 08, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Update, I gave it a go with sodium methylate. Started with using 2% sodium methylate (30%) based on oil volume. 4.8 gal SM plus methanol in 240 gal oil, or 18.14 L SM in 907.2 L oil. There was about .25 ML drop out in a 90 /10 test. After reprocessing the fuel passed.

Next batch I will increase the SM to 5 gal. and see what happens. I really would like to avoid reprocessing because of how my processor is set up.

So far I am impressed with the yield. I will try to get some numbers soon. The processor has two settling tanks, so comparing lye and SM side by side should be easy.

Again, thanks for the help.
 
Location: Virginia | Registered: March 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by fuelfarmer:

Next batch I will increase the SM to 5 gal. and see what happens. I really would like to avoid reprocessing because of how my processor is set up.



As your last batch failed by just a little using a figure of 4g/lt I'd be looking at 4.25 - 4.5g/lt for the next batch.

But, adding a small amount of SM to push the reaction to completion is not proportionate to the drop out in a single stage reaction, that only happens in the second stage of a 2 stage reaction once the first stage Glyc has been drawn off.
 
Location: Suffolk, UK | Registered: November 08, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Fuelfarmer, where do you get the sodium methylate?

I've been out of the biodiesel scene for a few years, but am starting again. Back around 2008 sodium methylate just wasn't available.

I may fire the supercritical processor back up, but that's a lot of work. Methylate would be easySmile

Out of curiosity, is potassium methylate also available?

Thanks!
 
Location: Maine, USA | Registered: July 06, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Potassium methylate,
its available over this side of the pond so i guess it must be available to you,according to Fuzznag its normally in 32% solution but a lot more expensive
 
Location: OXFORDSHIRE | Registered: October 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by David Miller:
Fuelfarmer, where do you get the sodium methylate?

I've been out of the biodiesel scene for a few years, but am starting again. Back around 2008 sodium methylate just wasn't available.

I may fire the supercritical processor back up, but that's a lot of work. Methylate would be easySmile

Out of curiosity, is potassium methylate also available?

Thanks!


I just called the company where I get methanol and they got it for me. If you want a number let me know. I think a few big players in the chemical business are making S M primarily for the biodiesel market.
 
Location: Virginia | Registered: March 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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After making a few batches comparing lye to sodium methylate I am impressed with SM. I am still working on how much SM to use. As much as I do not want to do a two stage reaction, it looks like that might be the way to go.

This is not a scientific test because the lye batch was single stage and the SM had to be reprocessed with a small amount of SM to get a 27/3 pass. More experimenting needs to be done.

Starting with 240 gallon of oil I am getting 20 to 25 gallons more fuel from the SM batch.
 
Location: Virginia | Registered: March 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The no titration method is working well. I got a 100 ml CF tube to check the fall out after the first reaction. The amount of fall out gives a good indication of how much catalyst to use in the second reaction.







Valve to collect samples while processing
 
Location: Virginia | Registered: March 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by fuelfarmer:
The no titration method is working well. I got a 100 ml CF tube to check the fall out after the first reaction. The amount of fall out gives a good indication of how much catalyst to use in the second reaction.







Valve to collect samples while processing


Looking good-How much less catalyst do you find you are using with the no tit method ff?
For me ,I am using around half what I used to use when I was titrating,just shows how much fuel was being wasted as soap.Close on 100% yields seem possible with the no tit method.
 
Location: UK | Registered: October 14, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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fuelfarmer - what do you mean by reprocess and how did you determine how much SM to use with 25 ml of dropout? Did you just add a little more SM to original batch and mix?


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Location: Richmond, VA | Registered: August 28, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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taralec, I don't know how much I am saving because I have not used SM on a single stage batch. This all started when I was trying to learn how to use SM.

EdC, the glycerin is drained after processing with reduced chemicals. The fuel is then tested for drop out. If I get 3 ml of drop out on a 90 /10 test I assume there is 30 % unreacted oil in the fuel. Then the fuel is reprocessed using only enough chemicals to react the 30% remaining unreacted oil.
 
Location: Virginia | Registered: March 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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So does anyone have any good data on SM and also can anyone tell me, as a new person to biodiesel,how to use SM I am looking to produce 50L batches but dont know where to start with the methylate.


Kind Regards
Aidy
 
Location: UK | Registered: March 29, 2015Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Aid,
Here is a link to biopowered, it will tell you all you want to know re ASM.http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Anhydrous_sodium_methylate
 
Location: YORK UK | Registered: April 27, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Dgs:
Aid,
Here is a link to biopowered, it will tell you all you want to know re ASM.http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Anhydrous_sodium_methylate
http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/mybb...?tid=35186
 
Location: YORK UK | Registered: April 27, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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