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quote:
If the supply line that enters the tank is completely below the fluid level and someone mistakenly puts the venturi that feeds the meth into the line below the fluid level as well, that could / would potentially lead to a reverse flow back into the meth tank when the pump is turned off and the vaccum disappears.


Ahhh see what you mean now. So would looping the meth line above the fill level be enough to prevent the back flow do you think?

As for getting the eductor into an appleseed. Graham's/Jim's design would slip through a small port easily enough.

I am more into using that than buying a stock part.


mathematical elegance -- desired result achieved with minimal complication
 
Location: Manchester UK | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Ant,

I'll see what I can come up with after seeing one on the other thread.

It will fit onto the end of a 22mm pipe and slip through a 22mm tank fitting.

Should be a piece of cake to make.

Just when I thought I had a perfect setup, some throws a spanner in the works and it's start again.

Jim.
 
Location: Suffolk, UK | Registered: November 08, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Ant:
Ahhh see what you mean now. So would looping the meth line above the fill level be enough to prevent the back flow do you think?

As for getting the eductor into an appleseed. Jim's design would slip through a small port easily enough.

I am more into using that than buying a stock part.


I think it probably would be enough. You are not likely to get any back sloshing or waves to create a siphoning situtation.

I too am into making things rather than buying.


Dave
 
Location: Portland | Registered: March 04, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by jamesrl:

The info you wanted for swagging the mixer.

I used a 2" pipe cutter but removed the cutting wheel and replaced it with one of my own making. It's made form 3 x 5mm penny washers silver soldered together and shaped with a file.

Solder washers making sure the holes are lined up. when cold mount on a 5mm bolt and tighten them on with a nut behind the washers. Put bolt and washers into a drillchuck turn on and shape with file.

I have attathed a photo.


Hi Jim,

Pardon my ignorance, but couldn't your Swagger tool be used to shape much if not all of the venturi?

Couldn't you clamp a pipe into a pipe vice, use your Swagger Tool to crimp with a downward pressure the entire length of the pipe, then come back and contine the shaping either pass after pass, or could it be done with one continuous pass, just by continuing to slowly adjust the tool as you spin it around the pipe with a downward pressure? I realize that tool would end up riding on the outer edge of the roller, but still, wouldn't this still be faster and easier than hammering the whole thing out? Couldn't you, with this tool, almost be able to create a one piece venturi similarly to Graham's one piece without a lot of the hammering?


Dave
 
Location: Portland | Registered: March 04, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Dave,

I've tried the method you discribed, my pipe vice was my left hand (I have quite a grip after years of using tin snips and hand tools). It took twice a long as a drawn venturi, my very first attempt was made that way on page 2 of this thread, you end up with a series of rings that have to dressed out to get a smooth finish, inside and out.

So I developed the two part venturi, The instructions are on page 6 in my reply to Yair (I told him to keep it to his self and he's let 28 other poeple see it, can't keep any thing quite now days. B****y Freedom of information.)

The best way to make venturi's at speed is to spin them, Fast, accurate and repeteable. Other than that its the old hammer method.

Jim.
 
Location: Suffolk, UK | Registered: November 08, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Graham, The pipe at the top of the condenser going into the reactor, is this the pressure relief valve on a H2O heater? Is the hot H2O port just capped? Thanks, Mike Ps. Me being a newbie, I think your rig will help me keep the fumes down! thanks again www.biodieselcommunity.org/appleseedprocessor/
 
Location: near Atl Ga. | Registered: April 16, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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The best way to make venturi's at speed is to spin them, Fast, accurate and repeteable. Other than that its the old hammer method.

Hi Jim

Could you elaborate on "spinning them". Is it something that can be done with standard DIY tools (ie no lathe)

Cheers

Nick
.


Free collection of waste cooking oil in the Nottingahm area http://wastevegoil.co.uk
 
Location: Nottingham UK | Registered: December 14, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Has anybody tried this with a US water heater based processor yet? I have made an apple turn-over and am just about ready to get started on my first batch.

After processing, prewash and glycerol dump, I wish to drive the temp to 200F. I plan to bypass the thermostat with a wire jumper of the same gauge as used on the water heater as purchased. I have the harbor freight pump and the nylon braided hose from the pump outlet to the water heater inlet. Will these components hold up if I circulate the pump and heat to 200F? Is there a better way (switch) to bypass the water heater thermostat?

I plan to do this outside (my processor is on a cart with wheels), and be close by to shut it down if anything goes wrong.
 
Registered: March 10, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Jim

Could you elaborate on "spinning them". Is it something that can be done with standard DIY tools (ie no lathe)

Cheers

Nick
.[/QUOTE]

Hi Nick,

No, sorry it's not a DIY job you need a spinning machine (somewhat like a lathe) specialist tools and a former to work the metal too. In the case of a venturi the former would have to be in two parts so you can get the finished shape off.

Spinninig is a mass prodution method i.e. pots and pans (if not deep drawn).

Jim
 
Location: Suffolk, UK | Registered: November 08, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Has anybody tried this with a US water heater based processor yet? I have made an apple turn-over and am just about ready to get started on my first batch.

After processing, prewash and glycerol dump, I wish to drive the temp to 200F. I plan to bypass the thermostat with a wire jumper of the same gauge as used on the water heater as purchased. I have the harbor freight pump and the nylon braided hose from the pump outlet to the water heater inlet. Will these components hold up if I circulate the pump and heat to 200F? Is there a better way (switch) to bypass the water heater thermostat?

I plan to do this outside (my processor is on a cart with wheels), and be close by to shut it down if anything goes wrong.


Hi Jon h.

I have a GL plumbers delight on an 80 gallon standard appleseed. We drive the temp upt to 212 F to be sure the methanol is all out. I would not recommend running the pump at that temp if you have the braided flex tubing. I did that last week and things got awfully soft. No blow outs but the tubing did twist somewhat oddly in the heat... I would just as soon not have 212 F BD spewing all over my shop as I try to reach the pump shut-off. I think US plastics rates the braided tubing to 150 F or so, I could be wrong but its worth checking.

I had been recovering methanol from the fuel, settling, then pumping to the wash. Now I think I will settle for longer and try to skip the wash. I let a few batches cool off in the reactor and the soap settled in the lower plumbing... serious pain (had to get a blow torch to warm it and then push some air in the top to get her freed up). Since then we fitted a steel barrel for a settling tank, so we can run the fuel out while its still hot (had been settling in plastic).

I also bought a grundfos high temp circulator pump and plan to replace the plastic tubing with steel. The HF pump may take the heat, may not... so don't feel that you need to buy another pump if you want to give it a try.

FYI we had some success recovering methanol without pumping, just bubbling a trickle of air into the lower plumbing as the temp in the reactor got over 180F. I just want to try the pump aerating method as an alternative.

Sorry to drift off thread...

Great info here Graham. I have yet to find the 7 hours needed to sort through all 30 pages of the GL 1 day thread! Can I take the description on your Ecosystem page as the synopsis of the techniques involved?

Gracias,
Farmer
 
Location: Chambersburg, PA | Registered: January 01, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Is there a better way (switch) to bypass the water heater thermostat?


Hi again JonH

Disconnect the power to your heater, then remove the cover (sorry, just covering my bases)

If you just move the wire that leads from the element to the thermostat so that it shares a terminal screw with the hot wire coming down from the top of the reactor, it will be hot all the time (unbroken by the thermostat). This is of course no where near as safe or handy as installing some sort of switch...

Don't leave it unattended for long of course. I think the wiring diagrams on Graham's EcoSystem page detail some better heater controls.

Hope this helps,
farmer
 
Location: Chambersburg, PA | Registered: January 01, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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With all the new info on the eductor thing, there does not appear to be a need for an outside venturi .. It seems that adding one of the listed new eductors with a small diameter hose from the methoxide tank placed at the low pressure area of the eductor is all that is needed .. Of course the eductor would be placed in the reactor fluid inside the reactor at the end of the supply hose ..Then the eductor can strongly mix the reactor fluids and supply the methoxide..
 
Location: YAKIMA, WA | Registered: March 22, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Hi ONADAY

The venturi in this design is not used for mixing - the pump does enough mixing as it stands.

The REAL reasons for the venturi, which gives this process its benefits, are two-fold ...

----------------------

1. Most importantly - it recirculates the air in a closed loop in the tank, allowing you to dry WVO without introducing extra air or allowing oily air to escape.

It also allows you to drive off and collect all the methanol in a closed loop system, so you do not vent any air or draw new air into the system.

This vastly improves recovery and vastly reduces emissions.

And it is all done at atmospheric pressure.

----------------------

2. It allows you to inject and mix methanol after the pump, at a point where reverse flow will not be an issue , so no need for a non return valve, and it does not draw any air into the pump, which can cause poor pump performance / stalling when you first start to inject methanol.

----------------------

Folks, this thread is really for the processor itself, not venturis or eductors, a better thread for venturis and eductors for the system would be at...
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/91960555...961074381#8961074381

Best wishes,


Rover 75 + Skoda Fabia on B100
http://www.graham-laming.com

Bicycle on G100 12,000 miles p.a. ( http://uk.virginmoneygiving.com/GrahamLaming )
 
Location: UK | Registered: December 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Graham,

Yep your right, any further questions or idea's about Venturi's and eductor should be on the Home made venturi thread.

Just one question for you, have you finished the section on the vapour trap? I just want to confirm that my dimension are correct.

Jim.
 
Location: Suffolk, UK | Registered: November 08, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Jim

I've developed the process further, not to need a vapour trap. That's why I've left it blank.

Will write up the new process shortly.

Here's a layout, V = venturi...




Simpler, easier to use, more efficient, all runs at atmospheric pressure.

I wish I'd just quit developing it and leave it to mature for a while, would be less of a moving target for everyone!

But while there are improvements to be made, I like to make them as they occur to me.

Regards,

This message has been edited. Last edited by: GrahamLaming,


Rover 75 + Skoda Fabia on B100
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Location: UK | Registered: December 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Graham
Can't see the ES glycerol separation cell.
Is it on the agenda?
regards
 
Registered: November 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Graham,

Many thanks for the reply, I've just finished my latest Venturi, it's only 1 1/4 long 12mm throat. I'll be testing it this afternoon. Eductor and new idea for home made venturi will be tried today.

I'll put all the info. on the Venturi thread.

Jim.
 
Location: Suffolk, UK | Registered: November 08, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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GramLaming, using KOH, will it settle like NaOH, and you say it takes a few days to settle. Have you figured out how many days it takes to settle, and will it flow if put in a round, or conocal bottom tank?
 
Registered: September 22, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Hi GL...

Thanks for getting the thread back on track for those who don't own an anvil Roll Eyes

quote:
2. It allows you to inject and mix methanol after the pump, at a point where reverse flow will not be an issue , so no need for a non return valve, and it does not draw any air into the pump, which can cause poor pump performance / stalling when you first start to inject methanol.


Is stalling a big problem with the grundfos pump? I have been using the standard appleseed configuration with an HF pump, and it does not seem to mind a little gulp of air at the beginning of meth or water injection. However we just bought a grundfos 15-58 super brute (nifty!) and are planning to plumb it in next week. Don't have a venturi yet so I was planning to just swap pumps, but maybe this would be the time to flip over the appleseed, add a venturi, etc.

I know grundfos recommends a minimum inlet pressure for the pump which seems to suggest that it won't like air in the suction side.

PS we plumbed a grundfos 15-42 into our glycerol "still" yesterday, boy is that sucker quiet!

Cheers,
Farmer
 
Location: Chambersburg, PA | Registered: January 01, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Pappa,

I've got to admit I've not run many batches on KOH, and those I did, didn't settle out too well, so I went right back to NaOH, and life is sweet again.

I think it also depends on your feedstock, because I ran a batch with virgin canola and it worked just fine.

Then I ran a batch with hydrogenated oil, and I was cursing for days!

Hydrogenated oil seems to be a little denser, and maybe if you have hydrogenated or partly hydrogenated feedstock, or feedstock with a large percentage of tallow, the soap may not be so prone to settle out under gravity.

-----------------------

Hi Farmer

My grundfoss doesn't like air at all. It can't seem to purge air, so the pumping power just stops as soon as air enters it.

I'm not saying folks shouldn't inject methanol before the pump. If you want to, and if it works for you, you should certainly carry on. Just for me, with my pump, the venturi injection works so much better.

They are quiet, aren't they! you've really got to put your ear to the plumbing to even tell they are running.

Good luck, hope it all works out well for you.


Rover 75 + Skoda Fabia on B100
http://www.graham-laming.com

Bicycle on G100 12,000 miles p.a. ( http://uk.virginmoneygiving.com/GrahamLaming )
 
Location: UK | Registered: December 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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