I finally have a waterless system in place and have made a couple of batches and done many small experiments. I even made one pretty good mistake(15,000+ ppm soap!!!) and recovered, but still have a lot to learn. I have however learned enough to pass on a few things, some of which contradict what I read here so I wanted to start a new thread. So here goes:

High soap batches appear to fail the 27/3 test when in fact they would pass after you get soap down to something reasonable.

There are several ways to get too much soap in your BD and more soap = more work. Get really good at getting great reactions and make very little soap to start with. Don't go overboard with catalyst and methanol. More is NOT better.

Tilly is right: The shake-em up test is very reliable indicator when soap is low enough. The eye detects well below 100ppm. I am guessing even below 60ppm, which is where I stop. If you must do a soap test to determine when you are done, just keep removing soap until the titration solution hardly turns blue when you add the biodiesel. At that point you will be between 20-70 ppm.

You still need a soap test to know how much Magnasol to use.

Be able to do a soap test in your sleep and administer frequently as you learn.

I always need to add Magnasol twice. Once to get me down around 200-400ppm, and then again to get the rest of the way.

I don't like filters. I know everyone loves them but I found them to be twice the work, mess and expense than a spinner centrifuge. I spent 250 for new 2004 model 76 SpinnerII on Ebay and haven't used the filters since. I spent $60 on a new 12V shurflo ag chemical pump to drive it. I power that with an extra battery charger.

Spin the fuel without Magnasol to remove the worst of the soap. It removes about 700-1000ppm per hour, give or take. It becomes less efficient as the soap level decreases and you need to add the magansol at that point. All though, as best I can tell, it will eventually remove all soap without the need for magnasol. It just takes too long.

Spinners make MUCH cleaner fuel than filters.

After adding Magnasol, clean the spinner frequently, before it fills up. Otherwise the Magnasol "lets go" of the soap to make room for more Magnasol. If you let it go too long, you'll actually have a bowl of Magnasol with very little soap because the Magnasol is heavier and "pushed" the soap out of the centrifuge. This tends to prove my theory that Magnasol doesn't absorb soap as much as "snag" it.

Some feedstocks seem to make more soap than others, all other things being equal. I don't understand the chemistry nor can I prove it but I am certain of it. You may want to start being a little pickier about the source of your oil if you have problmes making lots of soap during your reactions.

Regardless of the method you choose, remove methanol after the reaction using standard and accepted methods. Very important. I boil it off into a 100 gallon tank of water that has is about 2/3 filled with water. This condenses the methanol, which I then put (using a very slow drain) into my septic tank. A condenser would be great so I can recover it, but right now I am content to feed the little critters.

When done, spin for 1 hour to make sure you have gotten all impurities, being sure to mix the barrel well to stir up anything left over so the spinner will catch it.

I hope this helps and remember: Your mileage may vary.

NCDiesel

Hi NCDisesel

Instead of blowing the methanol out into the water bath, you can also distil it out.

It is good because you get to save the methanol for the next run. You won't get it all out and will have to mop up the residue with an air feed as you mention, but you can save most of it.

You can do it in the processor itself. Keep the circulating pump running at all times, and be sure your heating element is well below the liquid surface.

For more details, see here.

quote:

shurflo

How is the Shurflo pump holding up?
How long do you leave it running per batch?
I am thinking about getting a Diselcraft centrifuge filter and am looking out for a suitable (cheap) pump.

quote:

Originally posted by NCDiesel:
Otherwise the Magnasol "lets go" of the soap to make room for more Magnasol. If you let it go too long, you'll actually have a bowl of Magnasol with very little soap because the Magnasol is heavier and "pushed" the soap out of the centrifuge.

NCDiesel

Does this mean you can "clean" the magnesol and reuse it?

Ooop! Did I say that! Man, this isn't going to help my sales!

-Jim

quote:

Originally posted by GrahamLaming:
Hi NCDisesel

Instead of blowing the methanol out into the water bath, you can also distil it out.

...snip...

Distilling is next on my list. I am thinking of the "plumbers friend" design since I have lots of free well water that is real cold. Plus the design fits my space better. This is the next project though......

quote:

Originally posted by Jim D:

quote:

Originally posted by NCDiesel:
Otherwise the Magnasol "lets go" of the soap to make room for more Magnasol. If you let it go too long, you'll actually have a bowl of Magnasol with very little soap because the Magnasol is heavier and "pushed" the soap out of the centrifuge.

NCDiesel

Does this mean you can "clean" the magnesol and reuse it?

Ooop! Did I say that! Man, this isn't going to help my sales!

-Jim

Actually, it still has a good bit of interstitial soap, even after it has packed itself with Magnasol. I mentioned it because it is counter productive allowing this to happen and makes you use a lot more Magnasol. The Magnasol isn't clean enough to re-use, though I never tried rinsing it after allowing this to happen. Maybe it displaces enough soap to make hand washing reasonable?????

quote:

Originally posted by Hercules:

quote:

shurflo

How is the Shurflo pump holding up?
How long do you leave it running per batch?
I am thinking about getting a Diselcraft centrifuge filter and am looking out for a suitable (cheap) pump.

So far, about 30 hours total of running and seems to be fine with no leaks or problems. At 600 gallons a year, it just adds 10 cents a gallon if it only lasts a year. I paid $210, counting shipping etc for three pumps. I use these as my transfer pumps between barrels too.

Hope this helps everyone.

NCDiesel

Hercules;
I have two of the ShurFlo pumps; one in 115V and the other in 12V. The 115V I have had for three years and it still works flawlessly for drawing water,drawing BD from the settling tank to the wash tank and for circulating the wash water to the spray head.
The 12V is new this year and has B100 in it all the time as the supply pump for a filing station for the tractors. Not so much as a hiccup to report.
I may get another 115V one to replace the clear water one I use for drying as the later is a little strong for that purpose.

quote:

Originally posted by NCDiesel:
I spent 250 for new 2004 model 76 SpinnerII on Ebay and haven't used the filters since.
...
Some feedstocks seem to make more soap than others, all other things being equal.

Is this what you are talking about:


Went back and read another post about using the Spinners. bayshorecs seems to be having some luck with these too: http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/719605551/m/3421061071/p/1

This has really got my interest!
I just sent an email to check prices on the "Fleet" models 936 and 960.
http://www.spinnerii.com/index.cfm/div/divID/40/divid/0

Did you settle out the glycerin, remove MeOH, spin fuel and remove more glycerin/soap in that order?

Curious to know what are your intitial titration levels were with the high soap feedstock?

Yes, that is the spinner I have. They no longer make it. Buying it directly from the supplier (TF Hudgins or something like that) is quite a bit more than the money I spent. Put "spinnerII centrifuge" in as one of your favorite searches on ebay. Just be patient, and they will email you whenever someone lists one. It took about 3 months for me to find one of the bigger ones that didn't have too much bidding competition.

Also, you do have the order of procedures right. After settling the glycerin, spin for a few hours to clean out the worst of the soap and left over glycerin. Then do a soap test and add the magnasol. Clean frequently. Spin afterwards for a hour or two to "polish" off the fuel.

The titration levels were low(1.5 KOH), but soap production seems to have as much to do with excess Meth and catalyst, water in the stock, etc as it does with high initial FFAs.

Good luck
NCDiesel

quote:

Originally posted by uniquewater:

quote:

Originally posted by NCDiesel:
I spent 250 for new 2004 model 76 SpinnerII on Ebay and haven't used the filters since.
...
Some feedstocks seem to make more soap than others, all other things being equal.

Is this what you are talking about:


Went back and read another post about using the Spinners. bayshorecs seems to be having some luck with these too: http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/719605551/m/3421061071/p/1

This has really got my interest!
I just sent an email to check prices on the "Fleet" models 936 and 960.
http://www.spinnerii.com/index.cfm/div/divID/40/divid/0

Did you settle out the glycerin, remove MeOH, spin fuel and remove more glycerin/soap in that order?

Curious to know what are your intitial titration levels were with the high soap feedstock?

Sounds like exactly what I am doing for the past 2 months. Works like a dream so far. I can quickly drop the soap to around 50-75ppm just by spinning. I have also noticed some decreased filtering times by adding a bubbler overnight to the unwashed BD before running it through the spinner (also helps remove any left over water or meth from the prewash). Others have mentioned bubble washing to get the soaps to settle. Kind of the best of both worlds. The bubbling helps the soap to settle at the bottom of the tank and they filter out faster.

I am still waiting on my pump from HF They didn't say it was backordered at the time (4 weeks now). The "finer" soap is very thin and tough to get out. I think I will have much better luck with the second tank setup though.

For those interested, I can clean 20 gallons of 1500ppm to 75ppm in about 2 hours in a one tank setup. I bet I can get under 1 hour with the two tank.

Sure is nice saving $.20 a gallon over a full mag wash!

I am using a GL 1 day + bubble + spin setup. Works like a champ for me.

Is that Spinner II made of aluminum?

And would one of these work as well?

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/159605551/m/9751014751/p/1

quote:

Originally posted by bayshorecs:
I am still waiting on my pump from HF They didn't say it was backordered at the time (4 weeks now). The "finer" soap is very thin and tough to get out. I think I will have much better luck with the second tank setup though.

Is your 2 tank process a recirculation between 2 tanks (back and forth)
2-tank setup

What is the titration of your WVO before processing?
Maybe reducing titration prior to processing would reduce soap.

Yes, that is the setup I am building. Right now, the discharge goes right back into the same tank making it mathmatically impossible to clean 100% of the fuel. You are always cleaning a percentage and will never arive at zero.

The gif is a little different than what I am building as I never want the spinner to stop spinning until I am there (the soap is liquid remember and will drain out if you don't catch it). I plan on running the pump with spinner non-stop and have a float turn on/off the pump to refill the filtering tank that feeds the spinner.

My oil is 100% clear soy. Titrates at .8 to 1.2 every time.

I must say, after "seeing" how much and what the soap really is, I would never run unwashed fuel in TDI. Hazy water doesn't seem like a big deal. 600ml of THICK black sludge/syrup in 25 gallons of fuel....makes you think twice!

Want to know the REALLY sad thing...I came across this back in March and didn't know what I had actually done... I never thought to just run the filter with no mag and see what happened.

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