G'day all!
I've been offered some sodium methylate and was wondering if anyone has any experience using the stuff. I'm told that because it's a water free catalyst, I'll get a higher yield.

Been offered powder and well and solution.

What about titrating proceedures? Will there be any changes?

Any imput welcome.

Blessings,
Wayne

Do a search on Sodium Methylate.

There are a few producers on this forum who use only Sodium Methylate. I believe it is the type that is in solution. I remember reading something somewhere that the powder does not work as well. Not sure why.

If your oil is bone dry, you will not produce soap.

I wish I could get my hands on some to try out.

quote:

Originally posted by Eurocab:
. . .

If your oil is bone dry, you will not produce soap.

. . .

Bone dry or not, soap will be produced if there are any FFAs in your oil. This is true for any catalyst: sodium vs potassium; or catalyst dissolved in methanol vs sodium methylate.

Hmmm? Just repeating what I read here.

quote:

Originally posted by Eurocab:
Hmmm? Just repeating what I read here.

You will find a lot of incorrect information on this site.
More and more now that a number of the fellows who actualy performed the tests and knew a bit of what they are talking about have left and the forum has been taken over by commercial interests.

quote:

Been offered powder and well and solution.

Do not take the powder. Pick instead the premix. The powder is extremely dangerous. It is unstable and if exposed to water vapor will create both hydrogen and the heat needed to ignite the hydrogen formed. In the US the powder is harder to get than dynamite.

More simply, leave the lid off and it will catch fire on it's own.

quote:

Originally posted by producer:

quote:

Originally posted by Eurocab:
. . .

If your oil is bone dry, you will not produce soap.

. . .

Bone dry or not, soap will be produced if there are any FFAs in your oil. This is true for any catalyst: sodium vs potassium; or catalyst dissolved in methanol vs sodium methylate.

I was under the impression that water was required to catalyse the formation of soap.

However i am told that it does reduce the soap formed which is very desirable.

Powder, very difficult , the maximum i can get is 100g due to transport regs.
Not that i would consider it anyway.

As someone has already said,Over here it is in the category one up from stabilised explosives for transport hence cannot be transported in bulk.

Even the solution is very difficult to obtain hence i am currently experimenting with molecular sieve.

Interesting question though,i can get sodium metylate in small quantities but if i try for potassium methylate it has 20% toluene in it, anyone know why ?

quote:

Originally posted by sunbrew:
. . .

I was under the impression that water was required to catalyse the formation of soap. . . .

Water, and heat, work to hydrolyze triglycerides. Hydrolysis is the act of breaking a fatty acid chain off of the glycerol backbone. The water is not consumed during hydrolysis so will continue to hydrolyze additional fatty acids from the glycerol as long as the proper conditions exist.

A free fatty acid (FFA) is formed when the fatty acid is broken from the glycerol.

Soap is formed when a FFA comes in contact with the catalyst. The source of the FFA is irrelevant. The FFA could be present in the oil at the beginning of the reaction, or the FFA can be formed during the biodiesel reaction.

Any FFA present in the oil at the start of the reaction will be converted to soap by combining with the metal ion donated by the catalyst. In this case the source of the metal ion is not important. Either NaOH mixed with methanol or NaOCH3 mixed with methanol will donate a Na ion to the FFA to produce soap.

One of the advantages of sodium methylate over NaOH is that no virtually water is introduced into the system when the catalyst is added. No water means no hydrolysis, so no new FFA formed during the reaction. Therefore, the use of NaOCH3 results in less soap formation than the use of NaOH catalyst.

Of course, the advantage of NaOCH3 is reduced if your oil is wet when the reaction starts.

quote:

You will find a lot of incorrect information on this site.
More and more now that a number of the fellows who actualy performed the tests and knew a bit of what they are talking about have left and the forum has been taken over by commercial interests.

Don,

If you aren't Tilly, you are doing a good impression of him.

Thank you for the compliment.

quote:

Thank you for the compliment.

Don,
Only you think so!
Bob

quote:

What about titrating proceedures? Will there be any changes?
Wayne

Hi,
I too, have 5 gallons of liquid Sodium Methylate.

I'd like to try a liter batch. But havent a clue what to do whith it.

If someone could help with the math/formula, I will do a side by side comparison with the same WVO (low titration oil).

I will also test both samples on our Gognis QTA machine.
TIA,
Brian

I found this thread. It's along the same discussion.

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/ev...9605551/m/7651054122

Do you know what the concentraion is? It seems to me it would be labeled as a 1N solution or something.

It's at work. I didnt read the label. We just got it Friday. I'll repost after work Monday.
Thanks.
Brian

Don't worry about not making soap. The plant where I work runs oil that is <0.05% FFA and <75 ppm water. Still plenty of soap to wash out.

Hi,
All it says is 'Sodium Methylate 25%"
My WVO titrates around 2.
I usually make a liter batch with 7 grams NaOH and 250ml of HEET meoh.
I'm not having any troubles with it, just would like the learning experience.
Brian

Ok,

I did some calculations earlier.

You can easily calculate the molecular weight (molar weight) of Sodium Hydroxide and Sodium Methylate.

Atomic Weights:
Hydrogen 1
Oxygen 16
Carbon 12
Sodium 23

Molecular Weights.
NaOH - MW - 23+16+1 = 40
NaOCH3 - MW - 23 + 16 + 12 + 3 = 54

So,
54 grams of pure Sodium Methylate would be equivalent to 40 grams of Sodium Hydroxide. (1.35)

If your solution is 25%...

Then multiply your quantities by 4*1.35 = 5.4

So..
7 gm (NaOH) * 5.4 = 37.8 gm (25% Sodium Methylate)

I'm not sure the density of your solution.

The density of Methanol is. 0.8 g/cm3, but the density of 25% Sodium Methylate is likely higher.

If you have a scale, and an ability to measure volume, you could make your own calculations...

Also, note, you are essentially increasing the amount of methanol you are using... so consider the extra volume from adding an extra 30 to 40 ml of methanol.

Hmmm...
It is possible you could reduce the amount of base being added due to using a stronger base.

But, Sodium Methylate + Methanol + Water is the SAME as Sodium Hydroxide + Methanol + Water.

quote:

Originally posted by Weldshop:
Hi,
All it says is 'Sodium Methylate 25%"
My WVO titrates around 2.
I usually make a liter batch with 7 grams NaOH and 250ml of HEET meoh.
I'm not having any troubles with it, just would like the learning experience.
Brian

Alright weldshop, I'm going to give this a shot.
It looks like the SG of 25% NaOCH3 is .945
You can make a titrant adding 1 ml NaOCH3 into 1 liter H2O. For every ml titrant needed to reach the end point you will need that many ml's NaOCH3 added per liter of oil to a basic amount of 12.18ml. Add in the necessary volume of methanol with the NaOCH3 to reach your 25% total volume you would normally use. This is to duplicate quantities you would use with NaOH.
As Keelec said, reduce your volume of Methanol needed accordingly.
So for your oil that titrates at 2ml NaOH:
You would add 2g NaOH to a base of 5g = 7g NaOH which contains 4.025g Na.
For the same oil you would use 17.052ml NaOCH3 which contains 4.024g Na.
Sure sounds like alot of work for a homebrewer though.

Keelec,
Thank you for the wisdom.

And yes, DD, it does seem like alot of work for homebrew. Unless all I have to do is bump the methanol up to reach 22-25% volume of the batch.

Are you saying that my 5 grams of 99% NaOH gives me the same sodium (caustic) quantity/potency as 12.18ml of 25% NaOCH3?
As in my base of 5, which, in a titration of zero, let's say, plus 237.82ml of MeOH would transesterify 1 liter of oil?

12.18ml NaOCH3 + 237.82ml MeOH = 25% Volume of 1 liter.

From there, add titration as needed and subtract the MeOH?

Please excuse my mechanical thinking, I'm really trying to catch on. One of these nights it will hit me like a brick wall.
I have about 300ml here in the shed.

If it can be titrated, can't it be made into a recipe formula? Seems like a time and space saver, actually.
Unless of course I'm totaly not understanding something, here.

But its not my thread, and I feel like I'm tying this one up.
Perhaps I need more reading.

Thank you,
Brian