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Electrostatic-field purification experiment.
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In response to the wire mesh approach, I tried that and found it worked poorly. I tried using wire mesh, and using long pieces of conductive wire with the hope that this would "spread out" the field across more of the liquid and as a result have the process work faster. However, that did not happen, the process worked much worse. I found the best results occurred using the point to point approach, so I intentionally used spark plugs because they are points, and well insulated around the point (of course, you have to cut off the piece of metal that normally gets sparked onto). Feel free to test with mesh, perhaps I missed something in my testing.

In response to the conductivity of glycerin question, I also realized that early in my testing. You can actually see the current arc into the glycerin layer through the biodiesel, it's pretty impressive! To avoid this, I placed my point electrodes high enough (towards the top of the PVC pipe) so that arcing would not occur. However, you cannot place them too high, or else you can get arcing onto the inside surface of the PVC - so try to stay about 1/3 of the way down the diameter of the pipe from the top.

I hadn't heard about the powdery substance - that could be an issue, but unfortunately I couldn't see my electrodes while in action because the schedule 80 PVC I used to stick them in wasn't clear.

On the question of side producers, I touch on that in the poster as a cautionary measure in using this. I also don't know what side products we may be producing, and I didn't do a full slate of ASTM tests on the finished separated fuel to have that information - so that would need to be done.

Most of the design parameters are touched on in the poster - inkscape is a great free program and easy to download.

I would like to hear from someone using a higher or lower voltage - what is the maximum container size that you can use and still be effective at dropping all the visible glycerin within 30 or so seconds? I wonder if higher voltages will allow you to have more distance between the electrodes (and therefore be able to create a faster continuous system).

Greg
 
Location: Pittsboro NC | Registered: December 12, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I would like to hear from someone using a higher or lower voltage


Thanks for the info on the mesh; another theory bites the dust Roll Eyes Seems like it is perhaps more of a corona effect than a field effect?

Johno tried 7kv and got thick fast plating of soap onto a metal electrode.


mathematical elegance -- desired result achieved with minimal complication
 
Location: Manchester UK | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Greg,

I was hoping you would expand on your experiment.

Was it in the middle of a static tank? Was it in a pipe (size, length, spacing, glycerin drain, flow rate, etc)? What type of electrical contact from outside wire to the mesh? What metal was used for the inside mesh? Specific results?

Edison tried about 9000 ways to make a light bulb. 8999 failed, but that didn't mean that he wasn't on the right track. But, beating a dead horse isn't a successful method either.

-tony
 
Location: Central Texas | Registered: December 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Edison tried about 9000 ways to make a light bulb.


Although I agree with your sentiment in principle...


Hmmm Edison never actually invented anything himself. He aquired many patents by employing people to develop existing ideas for him. He was in fact the most prolific financial exploiter of other peoples creative work to have existed at the time. He was also quick to take credit for the inventions he owned although they were not actually produced by the work of his own mind.

Famously big on self promotion and dramatic circus like demonstrations (including electrocution of dogs on stage, when his DC system was failing to compete with Tesla/Westinghouse's AC system; as a deliberate falsification of the relative dangers of high current DC and AC.).

To take your example of the lightbulb; there were eight seperate stages of documented invention prior to Edison, including a patent which he purchased so that he would have the right to develop and sell the lightbulb as his own. development timeline The contribution his team of workers made to the design was a longer lasting lightbulb that could be made cheaply. It lasted 40 hours instead of 13.5 hours at a reasonable cost. Other long lasting bulbs were too expensive for general use. The work simply adapted the work of the previous inventors in the field and became Edison's because he bought the patent.

This is typical of Edison's claim to invention. AC electricity was invented by Tesla and jointly owned by Westinghouse. Edison used financial leverage to wrest the patents from Westinghouse and Tesla agreed simply to help Westinghouse out of his troubles, because he considered him a friend.

Edison is often credited with inventing the word Hello and he was the first to use it on the telephone. Also it was the telephone system that entrenched the word in the language in competition with AG Bell's "ahoy ahoy" Hello The word hello had however already entered the language and even the dictionary prior to Edison's use of it. Again typical of Edison's flair for false self promotion.

He was first and foremost both a businesman and a capitalist, very good at both, but never an inventor despite his self promotion as such. Like many capitalistic businesmen he never let the truth get in the way of his personal and financial self interest.


mathematical elegance -- desired result achieved with minimal complication
 
Location: Manchester UK | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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was looking at the section on "different types of oil skimmer" and thought that if could apply your kv to the active part eg the disk on the disk skimmer then you could have a contiuous soap remover. Johno got thick soap using around 7.5kv.

oil skimmers


mathematical elegance -- desired result achieved with minimal complication
 
Location: Manchester UK | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I curious to find out if y'all are using the Electrostatic-field technique inside the reaction vessel or in a settling tank? ... if in the reaction vessel is anyone doing it in an appleseed? ... when varying the frequency are you varying the input frequency (and hence the output is varied) or are you varying just the output (not sure how this would be done ... but then I'm not an electrical genius either)?

I've tried this using a ballast out of a fluorescent light fixture without results (the ballast may not have been good so I wasn't worried about trashing the unit) and am now in search of another high voltage source. Has anyone thought of looking into the natural resonance of glycerin itself?

Thanks.
 
Location: western North Carolina | Registered: February 28, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Has anyone thought of looking into the natural resonance of glycerin itself?


what do you mean?


mathematical elegance -- desired result achieved with minimal complication
 
Location: Manchester UK | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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hello guys

i did make test with 15kv AC, and the result is unsusseful Frown

i used just oil.
did i do something wrong?
 
Registered: May 30, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi I used the balast from a fluroescent light that was rated as 8watts I was told the flourescent lights kick around 1000v so that would limit the current to 8mA. It runs of a 12v adapter and is designed for an aquarium so is great for small scale testing.
I watched the videos on youtube and tried to recreate the 5 minute reaction times reported there, so I mixed virgin olive oil unused straight from the bottle into a jam jar with the right amount of methoxide, shaked the hel out of it then plunged in the wires, the glycerine did seperate and from time to time a ringing noise was heard just like grahams video, this allong with other cracklings. The glycerine gathered into a lump and was remove after 5 mins, there remaining was a dark brown layer under the bd, when the elctrodes touched this liquid the sparked under the oil surface. The bd failed the 27/3 test baddly with about 50% reaction, this lead me to investigate the brown liquid at the bottom of the jars it turns out to be methoxide mainly. So in unused oil the electrostatic field will kick out methanol, glycerine and water. Just ashame I cannot repeat these findings with used oil, and we still have to heat and stir a reaction and wait for that hour or two unless I assume you can use pressure and cut the reaction time by upping the temp but holding the methanol as a liquid under pressure?
 
Location: uk | Registered: July 10, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hmmm Edison never actually invented anything himself. He aquired many patents by employing people to develop existing ideas for him. He was in fact the most prolific financial exploiter of other peoples creative work to have existed at the time. He was also quick to take credit for the inventions he owned although they were not actually produced by the work of his own mind.


Sounds a lot like Bill Gates.
 
Location: Chambodia | Registered: December 31, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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My question is ... Do you or don't have to use the transesterfication process to have the electrostatic to work.
What will happen if you do not use the methanol and lye?
 
Registered: August 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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What will happen if you do not use the methanol and lye?

Not much. The transesterfication reaction needs to take place first. The electrostatic seperation doesn't break up the molecules, it just "sorts" them.
 
Location: Moses Lake, WA, USA | Registered: August 15, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Bah johno beat me to the punch


quote:
Originally posted by Murphy: In short, this place is like a multi-dimensional bull$hit detector on steroids
 
Location: In the Pacific Somewhere | Registered: January 25, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Oops, sorry Paul. Stop by the BioBrewers Bar and grill sometime and I'll buy you a rootbeer. I want to see if I can attract all the bubbles to one side of the glass with 7.5KV!
Cheers,
JohnO
 
Location: Moses Lake, WA, USA | Registered: August 15, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Anyone thought of using an arrangement built with an electrode in the middle of a large black iron or stainless pipe with the electrode in the center insulated and held by pvc pipe fittings? These will fit the threads on black iron pipe, all npt. Would kind of look like a bag filter arrangement, pipe standing vertical with a coupling welded in each side for in and out,on the sides, pipe caps on each end with one drilled in the center for the electrode perhaps... the whole thing could then be insulated from the rest of the system via more pvc couplings... or a similar type of plastic coupling, there are lots of chemical resistant ones out there... The bio could be pumped through it slowly and then have a filter downstream to catch particles. After the run the center pipe could be cleaned or flushed out with water to remove soap???? HMMMM??? A commercial bag filter could even be modified to house the electrode....all in one. HMMMM!!! I may have to drag out the welder.....Also, a ignition transformer for a gas or oil furnace will supply 6-12 kv and are cheap, of course the voltage will have to be run through some diodes, or a bridge rectifier to make dc.... Just some thoughts from a high tech redneck HA!!
 
Location: LYNCHBURG VA | Registered: July 16, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I read this thread with interest - has anyone made any progress on soap separation electrostatically?

I'm particularly interested because I process according to Graham's GL Eco design, so demeth and stand without water washing. This seemed to work fine when it was warmer, but now it's cold in the UK my soaps are taking forever to settle out, and my vehicle is forever thirsty. Smile

Having seen the youtube vids of glycerol separation I was wondering if the same could be applied to soap - then I found this thread.

I see Graham used a field strength of 30-40V/mm. I'm wondering if soap separation would be improved by a greater field strength, say up to 300V/mm.

I was also thinking about how tea leaves move to the middle of the cup when stirred gently (hey, I'm a Brit, I like my tea Wink ), and wondering if the same could be applied to soaps in bio.

To that end I was pondering building something like this:



Obviously it's not exactly to scale and minimum separations between HV parts would have to be observed to prevent arcing. The dielectric strength of veg oil, from what I gather, is about 10kV/mm, so my 10kV RMS (~15kV peak) transformer woudl generate a peak field strength of about 300V/mm AC.

The inlet at the top would form a jet to gently spin the bio, in the hope of getting the soaps to come to the centre and fall out.

Whether this would work, or whether the bio would just carry the soaps back out again I don't know - but it has got to be worth a shot? Smile

Any words of wisdom?
 
Registered: November 04, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Has anyone tried an electric fence charger yet?

Ace Hardware among others sells a FI-SHOCK SS-725CS electric fence charger that puts out 1000V, 5.5 milliamps, continuous charge. $25.00 no holla. Will be picking one up soon to do some experimenting.
 
Registered: March 16, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Guys,

looks like this thread has been forgotten, looking at the dates?

I believe its a fanatastic way to seperate gly from bio,

Just a few questions:

should one demethylate, (condense methanol) before adding electrostatic charge?
e.g once process is complete and waiting to be transfered to settling tank, should one just heat process to 70C demeth excess methanol and then hit electrostatic, seperate gly and wash bio?

Or will this cause glycerol to become very thick/hard to pump etc.

Kind regards


Joshau
 
Registered: April 21, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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you need to seperate the glycerin first or you risk pushing the reaction equilubrium the wrong way by removing the methanol.

Tim
 
Location: Adelaide Australia | Registered: October 01, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Tim AU:
you need to seperate the glycerin first or you risk pushing the reaction equilubrium the wrong way by removing the methanol.

Tim


That doesn't comport with whole batch demeth, which plenty of guys do without issue. I plan to start doing that myself soon -- heat combined with vacuum should demeth a whole batch in very short order, so I'm not worried about much reverse reaction.

And...amazing thread resurrection!

Cheers, John
 
Registered: June 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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