Good video. I once tried doing the same thing using just 12vdc. The soap seemed to collect preferentially on one plate, but I didn't notice the dropout you show. The obvious difference is the high voltage. Good stuff. Now I just need a high voltage supply!
Cheers,
JohnO

Hi Bright Young Maveric

In the 1st experiment at the top of the page, yes, de-meth'd.

In the glycerol experiment, no, still has all methanol, straight out the reactor, no 5% wash.

So in real life, I expect to do the glycerol liberation 1st, then de-meth, then liberate the soap, then filter, probably thru 1 micron sock, and into the car.

I will do this in the next few days.

Must get some sleep, when I get an idea, I can't go to bed til it's tried and tested. Been up the past 60 hours.

Fortunately my wife and kids are visiting my parents-in law this week, so I can burn the midnight oil without upsetting anyone.

Hi Priespa1 and RyanP

I tried AC and it still works, but not quite as well as DC.

Soap separation works much better with DC

Glycerol separation seems about the same.

I think this is because of the higher density of glycerol. Once the blobs are big enough, they drop happily with gravity.

With soap, the density is similar to biodiesel, so I suspect this is why dropout is slow with AC. With DC we give the soap a constant pull.

But, either way, AC or DC both seem to offer improved rates of separation than just gravity alone. No apparent difference from running at 50, 60 or 400Hz.

A few ideas on how you can easily generate high voltages from 200 to several thousand volts...

For soap separation, very little current seems necessary.

For glycerol separation, higher current is required, as the liquid is more conductive due do the large amount of NaOH present in the liquid.

Avoid getting both conductors immersed in the glycerol byproduct layer, as it has a very low resistance and conducts electricity well, thanks to the concentrated NaOH and presence of water.

A relatively safe source of high voltage, low current DC is an "Insulation Tester"

Search e-bay and you'll see a heap of them.
Make sure it is stated as being able to generate a high DC voltage - not AC.

Some are hand-cranked, OK for short term experiments, but a pain if you want to run an experiment over more than a few minutes.

These testers will be suitable for trying out simple tests on small lab quantities of BD, similar to what I've been doing so far.

Most have a pushbutton you'll need to keep pressed in during the test.

For those more experienced in building high voltage equipment, these links may be of interest...

http://www.techlib.com/electronics/highvolts.html
http://home.earthlink.net/~jimlux/hv/cw1.htm
http://www.kronjaeger.com/hv/hv/src/mul/
http://www.blazelabs.com/e-exp19.asp
http://www.rmcybernetics.com/science/high_voltage/voltage_mult.htm

Don't try this at home, kids...

So you could just fill it into a barrel, connect the barrel to one phase, and an electrode centered in the barrel to another phase in the incoming power line... Then you get a 400 volt AC, 50 Hz, stream.... No current limiting though...

Hehehe... re-read the first line before you scream...

Paul

I'll just put a lightning rod in the middle, or maybe fly a kit in a storm with a wire attached. Ben Franklin could have discovered a way to separate glycerin and soap from biodiesel!

can I suggest that you guys take a couple of steps backwards.. away from the edge



Aussie biodiesel bob

Graham,
Wow! Wish I had the time and the level of knowledge of electricity that you have!
Thanks for all you do for our hobby.
Rick H...

I have a 10/2 amp battery charger. Will this work and/or kill me?

Graham,

I saw that you posted a 20something ppm soap result.

Was this AFTER you did your patent pending Airwash method? Or was this following the electrostatically enhanced separation? If it was after the Airwash, do you perhaps have some soap ppm numbers immediately following the electrostatically aided separation?

Best regards,

Wes

Hi Nuculer,

I'd suggest you use something with very little current capability , less than 1mA (not much current needed or desirable) and high voltage, more than 150V.

The battery charger is the opposite, having high current and low voltage. This could create a very hot spark or melted wires if wires or electrodes touch, and that, in biodiesel isn't safe.

I have tried using low voltage, at 24V and it is not really a success, anyway.

I will try to find an off-the-shelf, safe, affordable product people can use to experiment with.

------------------------------

Hi Dogma,

This was after driving off methanol, scooping out any globs of soap (but no filtering) and then 30 minutes of applied 1000V DC.

The biodiesel was cloudy at the beginning as you see in the early pic. After 30 mins there was a particularly clear zone, from which I took the sample.

quote:

The biodiesel was cloudy at the beginning as you see in the early pic. After 30 mins there was a particularly clear zone, from which I took the sample.

obeykaybe... so this was not, by any reasonable notion, a "representative" sample of the overall soap content remaining in the biodiesel.

Very interesting. I'm still excited to see how this plays out. Hopefully you'll be able to get a representative sample. Maybe perhaps, apply voltage for an hour or so, scoop off the bulk soap, drain the glycerine, then circulate (or shake up if its in a bottle per your video) THEN do a soap titration.

High voltage generators:

A relatively safe source of high voltage, low current DC is an "Insulation Tester"

Search e-bay and you'll see a heap of them.
Make sure it is stated as being able to generate a high DC voltage - not AC.

Some are hand-cranked, OK for short term experiments, but a pain if you want to run an experiment over more than a few minutes.

These testers will be suitable for trying out simple tests on small lab quantities of BD, similar to what I've been doing so far.

Most have a pushbutton you'll need to keep pressed in during the test.


Hope that helps.

Thanks Graham. Now what about a 50 gal batch of BD?

Just thinking out loud about what is laying around...I one were to have dual heating elements in the tank could you decouple the AC and hook high voltage DC to them. I guess it depends on their distance apart. Then it is a matter of coming up with high voltage. I wonder if you could take nucular's 12V/2amp charger and hook it to an automotive ignition coil. That could take you from 12v to 40k volts. Not sure if those are made for running continuous or if they expect some pulse time. At 40kv using Graham's 10v/mm, you could have them 4m apart if I did my math right. Wish I had a place to try this.

i did the math, you only need about 8kv for something like 27 inches.

40kv at 4mm will be dern close to a direct short.

Dogma

8kv sounds a better. 27 inhces would fit in a poly barrel pretty well. But I didn't have 40kv at 4mm. Probably make a good Jacob's Ladder...right before it went boom. I had 4m...something like 32+ft. I wonder what makes 8kv that is cheap and off the shelf.

Keith

you can buy a 40 dollar DC voltage multiplier. Just do a search on high voltage DC power supplies or voltage multipliers.

For a 55 gallon drum, you really only need a maximum of 23 or 24 inches - half of that if you put one electrode in the center of the drum and make your drum the other electrode.

lol, hehe, i did read it wrong, you had 4m. I guess my brain was stuck on small distances and i don't think i figured that somebody would be thinking of 20 some odd feet.

What voltage does a neon sign transformer put out? Use a rectifier to convert to DC.

Have you tried HV on WVO?

here ya go a picture of about 15ltrs of bio thats just had the methanol removed
i ran the test for 12hrs cause i was at work but it shows that with a battery charger it does work has all the soap is in the centre part of the barrel.
www.plugly.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/bat1.JPG

Great Work Graham

plugly