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Electrostatic-field purification experiment.
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Hi Rob - sleepingdragon

80C may be too hot - let it drop to 50C and see what happens then.

If nothing try cooler - and so on.

The first clue to soap separation is you should get a soap gel coating on the +plate.

Are you using KOH or NaOH?

In all this work, keep the electrodes well away from the bottom layer and away from the walls of the container, as they tend to build up a conductive 'fur' of soap.

The glycerol separation in particular - keep the electrodes high up. You're right - glycerol drops out with much less voltage.

Try this too --- washed, wet biodiesel. Apply field and watch the water drop out like lead balloons.


Rover 75 + Skoda Fabia on B100
http://www.graham-laming.com

Bicycle on G100 12,000 miles p.a. ( http://uk.virginmoneygiving.com/GrahamLaming )
 
Location: UK | Registered: December 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Having seen Graham do a demonstration from the boot (trunk in murrican) of his car at the UK bio expo with his electrostatic-field purification experiment I was most impressed (as were several other experienced biodieselers) at how it seperated the glycerine from the BD, and how it seperated the water from wet BD.

keep up the experimenting.

Chug


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Location: S.E. England | Registered: September 05, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hey Graham,

I'll get onto it first thing tomorrow and keep you posted. I was using a 2L stainless steal can and I tried copper, aluminum and a piece of sheet gal for the negative electrode but none worked.

More later,
Rob.
 
Registered: October 14, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by sleepingdragon:

I went out and bought a power supply so I could get some real data to help out. I can now test up to 6000V AC/DC 20mA/10mA

What did you buy and where did you buy it??
 
Registered: May 05, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hey Rockytop,

This is a lab quality piece of equipment that can output 6K AC to 20mA and 6K DC to 10mA.

As soon as I can get the lowest voltage that can separate a 1000L batch in under 5mins I'll go and find a manufacture and see how cheap I can get them produced at. The test unit cost me 2000yuan about $225usd.

I'm still working on the soap issue and will keep you all posted on a working voltage. Just remember to keep whatever trials your doing to below 10mA to be safe.

Rob.
 
Registered: October 14, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi all,

Well I mentioned that heating the bio+glycerol up to 80C for methanol recovery appeared to have taken more soap back into the glycerol well it appears nothing near enough to worry about. I did the JTF bottle wash test, then left sit an there appeared to be twice as much middle layer in the 50C sample but the pH showed today that there was only .5 difference.

Back to the real reason we're all here "soap removal". I redid the samples today but now at room temp (25C) and again nothing with the DC voltage turned all the way up to 6kV I only had .07mA current with 30mm gap? again no soap?

So once again I was using chicken fat that I first mixed 5g NaOH and 200ml Methanol to 1L fat that was at 55C for 30mins then took up to 85C to recover methanol, separated using .06kV DC running at 9mA. Had no luck with the soap so Graham suggested repeating again at lower temp but still no good. Has anyone else been using animal fats?

Tomorrow I'll have another go with fresh vegi oil with NaOH and KOH so I'll keep you posted.

Rob.
 
Registered: October 14, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Hi Rob,

That's interesting. Are you doing a prewash? I'm wondering if water content in the BD might influence this process.

Would you class your BD as bone dry or slightly damp?

In the stage above, you didn't mention glycerol separation/draining, but I guess you did this, right?


Rover 75 + Skoda Fabia on B100
http://www.graham-laming.com

Bicycle on G100 12,000 miles p.a. ( http://uk.virginmoneygiving.com/GrahamLaming )
 
Location: UK | Registered: December 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Graham,

I didn't do any pre-wash on this batch and it is bone dry with glycerol removed. We're on the move over the next few days so I'll be few days before I can conduct any more experiments.

Here's a link for you http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&S...21&RS=DN/20050120621

I did play with this a few days ago but added the mix to fast and it went of fire (DON’T TRY THIS AT HOME). My thoughts were if we're having an influence on the reaction maybe we could reduce the catalyst or lower the amount of alcohol? More will follow soon.

Rob.
 
Registered: October 14, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Graham, I got a step closer to implementing a continous coaleser along the lines we were discussing a few weeks back. I went and visites a glassblower this morning, He is making me a 70mm diameter 1200mm long glass tube with Schot Pilot glass fittings on each end. His suggestion for electrode mounts was 6mm compression type thermometer pockets, this makes it easy to adjust heights or tinker with alternative electrode geometry. It also alowes me to clamp directly to a 6mm HT cable thus avoiding any external HV terminations. So given my 70mm diameter vessel with a SS strip at the very bottom and a 30mm half round ss pipe slit in half situated just a bit above the centre. Whats you feeling on power supply, I think I culd need a bit of current to maintain electrode potential with a continous glycerin containing flow entering one end. From your experiences to date whats your guestimate. Some where I have a 2000V rack mount lab supply ( its still eluding me so far but Im a terible horder) Its vairiable voltage but only I think capable of about 20ma so Im a bit concerned that more current will be needed in a continous flow.

Ideas?

Regards
Tim Marshman
 
Location: Adelaide Australia | Registered: October 01, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Tim

That sounds really nice!

I've been experimenting with bottomless glass jars taped together here!

The electrodes want to be as high up as possible near the start of the flow, gradually dropping down as the upper layers become less concentrated with glycerol.

If your electrodes start too low down, the big clumps of glycerol dropping out will shunt all the current.

I'd love to see a pic, when you're up and running!

I'm now expanding the flow over a wider cross sectional area, to reduce flow velocity, because the glycerol blobs are being too easily carried away in a 2" diameter tube at around 5 litres/minute and more.

70mm should be good, though. You may want to add some flow straightening honeycomb at the beginning if your flow comes in turbulent.

Good luck!


Rover 75 + Skoda Fabia on B100
http://www.graham-laming.com

Bicycle on G100 12,000 miles p.a. ( http://uk.virginmoneygiving.com/GrahamLaming )
 
Location: UK | Registered: December 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I have some inch diameter thick walled pyrex tubes variuous lengths up to about three feet. You can have one if you want Graham. Call in when you are in the area.

I will post my mobile when I get a new one.


mathematical elegance -- desired result achieved with minimal complication
 
Location: Manchester UK | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hey Graham,

Have you got an email address that I can send you some pictures of what I've been working on this week.

Rob.
 
Registered: October 14, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Many thanks indeed Ant - I've got a few trips to make up north, so I'll give you a shout a few days before I know when.

I'd like to pick up 10kg KOH too, please, if you've any in stock?

Rob - emailed you a few minutes ago.


Rover 75 + Skoda Fabia on B100
http://www.graham-laming.com

Bicycle on G100 12,000 miles p.a. ( http://uk.virginmoneygiving.com/GrahamLaming )
 
Location: UK | Registered: December 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hey Guys,

Just got a message from "chewlikehell" that it would be best to take my email address off but I'm not sure how? if any one can help I'd be greatful.

Rob.
 
Registered: October 14, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Rob

Sign in and click the edit button in the bottom right hand corner of your post with the email address....



Then just remove the address and click the Post Now button.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: GrahamLaming,


Rover 75 + Skoda Fabia on B100
http://www.graham-laming.com

Bicycle on G100 12,000 miles p.a. ( http://uk.virginmoneygiving.com/GrahamLaming )
 
Location: UK | Registered: December 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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SleepingDragon, why would anyone tell you to remove your e-mail info from your public profile? Are you getting junk mail or something?
 
Registered: September 26, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Has anyone suggested using a car ignition coil to produce the volts ? Should be good for 12 - 14 Kvolt. Easy job to utilise an old distributor. You don't need to use the plastic cap.
Just passing through. Haven't time to check the whole thread.
regards
dva
 
Location: Yorks,England | Registered: June 30, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hey Welder,

I guess they just thought I'd get even more than usual junk mail? like it matters if there is 1 or 1001 I always just hit delete.

Should have all my numbers ready tomorrow from my experiments on electrostatic field catalyst for biodiesel production (not so successful so far)


Rob.
 
Registered: October 14, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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SleepingDragon, the reason I asked that is that it seemed kind of odd that someone would try to get someone else to delete thier contact info. Maybe Chewlikehell has had a bad experience with junk e-mail or something. Many forum members list thier contact info in thier profiles. It's fairly safe. How can anybody stalk someones e-mail address? I have recieved attempted e-mail fraud scams though, but that was because my wife naively gave the scammers our e-mail address on another site.


On the technical side, I have wondered if a hybrid technology combining both electrostatic fields and ultrasonic wave chambers would help clean things. Continuous process of course. www.sonosep.com . When I talked to them they didn't seem as confident as thier web sites sales pitch sounded. "Efficiency approaching 100%". We'll likely never know.... Oh Well...
 
Registered: September 26, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi dva

A car ignition coil may well have some useful effect.

However, because it is designed to give discrete, short duration impulses of high voltage, rather than continuous duty, you may find the total effective time is a small fraction of the total run time.

The pulse is present only whilst the magnetic field in the primary collapses.

If you were to drive the primary with a matched amplifier, at the coil's resonant frequency, you should be able to get good output with high efficiency.


Rover 75 + Skoda Fabia on B100
http://www.graham-laming.com

Bicycle on G100 12,000 miles p.a. ( http://uk.virginmoneygiving.com/GrahamLaming )
 
Location: UK | Registered: December 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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