I can't answer anything relative to bubble washing or drying other than both take forever compared to the way I settled on doing it.

I stick the hose pipe over the top and let it fill if in a hurry or make a spray with a hose nozzle or such if I have time. I will VERY GENTLY STIR THE MIXTURE with a paddle or small mixer in a variable speed drill running VERY SLOW for the first wash and let it settle for a few minutes to a half hour or so depending on how busy I am. Drain maybe 95% of the milky water off and do it again but mixing a LITTLE stronger, usually not letting it settle more than 30 minutes for any wash. The final washes will be very vigorous.

3-4 quick washes and the wash water will remain very clear at which point I'll drain until I get fuel and let it settle for a few hours or overnight if it's late followed by air drying.

Once I've washed it until the water stays clear followed by drying, I've never had anything settle on the bottom or top.

I can usually wash a 60-70 gallon batch of oil or biodiesel using about 20 gallons or so water each time, wash it 3-4 times and be ready to dry in roughly 1-3 hours depending on how long I let it settle much between washes, if I let it settle at all.

I guess I figured I was not letting everything settle out of the final wash water causing a little soap to remain. This is a mistake, but I think the longest I have ever let my final wash water settle is an hour and half at best and only a few minutes between washes. I am to excited to start drying. I will let it settle for awhile longer and see where that gets me.

For drying biodiesel a bubbler is defintley the way to go. After washing biodiesel just let it sit for a little bit then drain the water off. If you wait a bit longer you can probably drain more water off. Then just put a bubbler down deep into the biodiesel take the lid off your container and bubbler it for 12 hours. When doing this by the time the timer gets to 6 hours the stuff basically already looks dry. By 12 it's completely dry. Heat can help this but isn't 100% necessary unless it's really cold outside. The best part about this is the bubbler is only 3 watts and it you use a heater to heat the bio some for about an hour at 1000 watts you only use about 8 cents to dry your biodiesel.

If you use no heat just the bubbler running 12 hours costs about .3 cents, or $0.003. Can't beat essentially free drying. Running a 200 watt pump would cost you about 16 cents, then add heat to that and you get 24 cents, assuming you run the pump for 10 hours. It may not take that long, i don't know.

quote:

Originally posted by yaric:
For drying biodiesel a bubbler is defintley the way to go. After washing biodiesel just let it sit for a little bit then drain the water off. If you wait a bit longer you can probably drain more water off. Then just put a bubbler down deep into the biodiesel take the lid off your container and bubbler it for 12 hours. When doing this by the time the timer gets to 6 hours the stuff basically already looks dry. By 12 it's completely dry. Heat can help this but isn't 100% necessary unless it's really cold outside. The best part about this is the bubbler is only 3 watts and it you use a heater to heat the bio some for about an hour at 1000 watts you only use about 8 cents to dry your biodiesel.

If you use no heat just the bubbler running 12 hours costs about .3 cents, or $0.003. Can't beat essentially free drying. Running a 200 watt pump would cost you about 16 cents, then add heat to that and you get 24 cents, assuming you run the pump for 10 hours. It may not take that long, i don't know.

That's why I never went with bubble drying. And I don't know the size batches you dry but I have dried 30 gallons or so in less than a half hour by pumping it through the air. However this was on a winter day with very low rh, static in your hair type dry.

If you get the rh low enough, you can dry it quick. At 1/2 hour pumping you're looking at 100 watts by pumping. Not bad to dry that much fuel I figured. Even on normal %rh days it will dry in just a couple hours or so.

My thing was to reduce process time as efficiently as possible so I tried to do it all sans heat if possible. I'd monitor the rh via weather channel prior to washing.

quote:

Originally posted by guzzler:

quote:

Originally posted by irokcj5:
How do you dry in a high Relative Humidity area, like south Louisiana? Rh is usually 79-80% on summer days.

There are two ways I know of to lower the rh.
1. De-humidify the air by using the AC in a building or using a de-humidifier.

2. Increase the temperature of the ambient air. As you increase the air temp in the building, the rh decreases. Humidity Info

If you have no building to do it in you may need to build a small building for it. A good excuse for a shop!

...There has however been discussion of heating the fuel or oil to speed evaporation in high rh conditions but I've not experimented with that but once. You can likely find the answers here if you look. I've not tried bubble drying as it seemed to take forever and I couldn't wait forever.

I just built a 30x30 shop last summer, but not ac'd yet...But isn't it dangerous to dry in the building because of methanol vapor accumulating?

My thought was to heat to about 130 with a barrel heater, and bubble or spray...

Thanks for the link

No, the water bonds with the glycerine, methanol and soaps and removes them. I always washed mine several times before I start to dry.

quote:

Originally posted by yaric:
For drying biodiesel a bubbler is defintley the way to go. After washing biodiesel just let it sit for awhile. If you wait a bit longer you can probably drain more water off. Then just put a bubbler down deep into the biodiesel take the lid off your container and bubbler it for 12 hours. When doing this by the time the timer gets to 6 hours the stuff basically already looks dry. By 12 it's completely dry. Heat can help this but isn't 100% necessary unless it's really cold outside. The best part about this is the bubbler is only 3 watts and it you use a heater to heat the bio some for about an hour at 1000 watts you only use about 8 cents to dry your biodiesel.

If you use no heat just the bubbler running 12 hours costs about .3 cents, or $0.003. Can't beat essentially free drying. Running a 200 watt pump would cost you about 16 cents, then add heat to that and you get 24 cents, assuming you run the pump for 10 hours. It may not take that long, i don't know.

I think this is my problem. I don't let it drain long enough and the water that is still there is holding soap. Then when I start drying the water is going and the soap sinks with my dried fuel after letting it sit.

You shouldn't dry until the water is clear.

After 3-4 quick washes I'll let the last one set for a while to see if it's going to go gray. If I don't want to wait I'll wash it a couple more times right quick and then dry. However you should let it set even after the last wash for a bit and a little more water will drop out.

When you've gotten most of the soaps out, you can agitate the heck out of it after applying water and drain it almost immediately as the water drops out almost immediately! If not, you've got soap still in solution.

So another words when I think I have washed my fuel enough I could take a sample in the house and add it to a pop bottle with water and shake it up completely and see if the water is clear on the bottom when seperated? How long should I wait if it doesn't settle immediately? I believe I did this 'wash test' in my last batch and within 10-15 minutes I had clear water on the bottom and fuel on the top, but if that is the case what is the white stuff on the bottom of my sample 'show off' tube? Its not much, but it does settle at the bottom and when you pick it up and swirl is around you can see it floating around.
I have not been bubbling for longer than 6 hours at a time, but I think I am going to up it to 12 hours or longer as my mist washed go fast. The mister I bought is a 1gph but it's more like 10 gph, but I never have a problem with the water not mixing with the fuel.
again, thanks

quote:

Originally posted by hiperf2007:
So another words when I think I have washed my fuel enough I could take a sample in the house and add it to a pop bottle with water and shake it up completely and see if the water is clear on the bottom when seperated? How long should I wait if it doesn't settle immediately? I believe I did this 'wash test' in my last batch and within 10-15 minutes I had clear water on the bottom and fuel on the top, but if that is the case what is the white stuff on the bottom of my sample 'show off' tube? Its not much, but it does settle at the bottom and when you pick it up and swirl is around you can see it floating around.
I have not been bubbling for longer than 6 hours at a time, but I think I am going to up it to 12 hours or longer as my mist washed go fast. The mister I bought is a 1gph but it's more like 10 gph, but I never have a problem with the water not mixing with the fuel.
again, thanks

When doing the water shake test, let the stuff sit for about ten minutes and it'll separate. It'll do it faster the warmer it is. Ideally you should get just water and then biodiesel on top and no layer between the two. If you get a white layer that's soap.

When I wash my stuff, as I'm washing I end up with super clear water coming out and then a small-medium soap later then the biodiesel. In a 60 gallon batch, the soap layer is like 1-2 gallons maybe. After I'm satisfied with the clear water coming out I drain the water, then drain the soap into a bucket and continue draining until i get biodiesel coming out. I let it sit for about 10 minutes then drain again and usually some more soap will come out and then a bit more water and then bio again. I do this so after I'm done with this batch, the bio that came out into my bucket i just put into the next batch and the soap and water i just dump out.

I guess i should have said earlier but I also bubble the biodiesel and mist at the same time after the first 10 gallons of water has gone through. This helps to agitate the bio and knock more soaps out such as the paddle/agitating biodiesel was said by guzzler.


Anyways, hope that helps.

People are talking about mixing the batch very good. After a couple of complete washing is it possible to fill the tank with water and turn on the pump to mix it up good. This would completely mix everything together and if nothing mixed in the test wash it should be fine right?

quote:

Originally posted by hiperf2007:
People are talking about mixing the batch very good. After a couple of complete washing is it possible to fill the tank with water and turn on the pump to mix it up good. This would completely mix everything together and if nothing mixed in the test wash it should be fine right?

That'd work.

I could see turning on the pump would completely mix the whole batch up. That would be really good for washing as the final stage as long as you have made good fuel and your test wash seperates good. I think I will try that on my next batch as see how it goes. I will try a small washed batch first so I don't screw up a huge amount of fuel if it doesn't work to plan.

Unless you want a nice batch of Hellmans, I'd suggest you ONLY use the pump after washing at least three rounds.

Try this for a batch. Take your misting apparatus, disconnect it and put it aside. Get your trusty garden hose with a spray nozzle if you're ambitious, or just turn the water on and for the first round, use your index finger to make a fan spray pattern. Let it run until you add maybe 20%, about the amount of methanol you used.

<<<---CRITICAL--->>>

VERY GENTLY WITH A SHEETROCK MUD MIXER IN A VARIABLE SPEED DRILL, run it just fast enough to see movement and gentle mixing, NO VORTEX! Or some use a boat paddle or such and mix by hand. Let that be the first wash. Let it settle maybe 10-20 minutes and drain it, noting how much water you added. When you're close to getting out what you just put in, slowly let it drain and your water will begin to look more like milk. Stop.

Round 2: Add water again and agitate it a little stronger this time if you like but NO VORTEX again. Settle maybe 5-10 minutes and crack the drain valve and check it. If no fuel in the mix, allow it to slowly drain as long as you're not seeing fuel until you're at the stopping point again.

Round 3: Fill 'er up again and agitate it, vortex this time but don't go crazy with it. Let it settle another 5-10 and drain again.

By now the wash water shouldn't have near as much soaps in it and resembles watered down 1% milk or such. If so repeat the sequence until the water is practically clear after settling a bit.

When you have the soaps gone you can agitate it with an outboard motor if you like and by the time you shut off the engine, kneel down and crack the valve it will already be separating enough that you'll have water at the valve just that quick.


The above is typical for what I've done. You'll have to practice to become more comfortable but patience when stirring or mixing is CRUCIAL the first two rounds.

The thing to watch for is milky looking water at the beginning of the draining. When you have that, regardless of the wash count, you've still got too much soap.

After it's almost clear initially, you may get some heavy milky stuff just under the fuel layer at the end of the water drain. This sometimes can be prevented by washing and drying the oil prior to processing if it involves animal fat. It's not a problem however.

You can drain it until you get clear fuel but you will bring fuel out with it. I usually save that stuff until maybe the 3rd or 4th wash so it's been deluted a bit.

You can do 4-5 wash cycles like this in 1-2 hours depending on how much soap you begin with which will determine how long it takes to separate. If good oil and hi% reaction, you'll be done quickly because you won't spend much time settling. Bad oil stock and you'll have to wait a bit longer for the "milk" to thin.

Good luck and hope this helps. Only by trying will you succeed.

Thanks for the info
I thought my BD was starting to cloud over at 60-65 degrees here in the house because after I saw the soap and mixing up my little sample (have been keeping little samples of each batch) MORE white stuff settled to the bottom and the BD was cloudy again. I ran hot water over the container and it when cystal clear again where you could read through it. Why is it doing this? Why after two days it would cloud over and then when hot water is ran over it and heated up the BD it cleared and stayed clear until morning? I have not looked at it now that I am home from work though.

Needs washing more probably.

Hey, what are you waitin' for? B80?? B100!!! Don't be skeered!

HAAHHA was kind of waiting for 100% until I know I am making it 100% correct with no doubt. I have a newer truck that I would like to keep in one piece.

For older aged WVO

quote:
Originally posted by johno:
Dry WVO sealed in plastic has lasted up to 3 years, to be made into perfectly normal biodiesel, in my limited experience. The presence of water shortens storage life. So does exposure to the air. So does storage in metal drums. So does food contaminants.

Oil will develop a noticable "paint" smell as oxidation and polymerization begin, but before the viscosity starts to increase. I've used "painty" oil and biodiesel without problem in my IDI Mazda and VW, but might hesitate before using it in a high pressure common-rail engine. They have a reputation for needing the lowest viscosity biofuels possible.

I've finally finished burning my 2-year old biodiesel (some of which was made from 2-year old oil), and am now driving on last year's BD (made from mostly last year's oil). It does not smell painty, except the stuff that was in the steel tanks over winter.



I now have another source that told me I could have what he had stored for the last couple years. It was in a 55 gallon steel drum with a standard drum top. I took about 10 gallons off the top and it looker about as clear as new. I did a stove water test and it hardly had any water to it. The viscosity seems really low which has me concerned with it being 60 degrees out. It has the viscosity of oil heated to 80-100 degrees. I figured there was water thinning it out, but the test showed hardly any water at all. I am a smoker so I can't pick up smells the best so I will see what my wife thinks it smells like when she gets home. If it smells anything like vegetable oil use it?
Thanks

quote:

If it smells anything like vegetable oil use it?

Yes, exactly. Even oil that is starting to smell like paint will make good biodiesel, but it may have a short storage life, and TDi owners might want to actually compare viscosity with fresher BD.

Just wanted to throw my 2 cents worth in. When I was new into biodiesel, I was getting frustated with the wash and dry process.

I now wash using the mist bubble drain, mist bubble drain method and it works well for me. I also hated dumping out water that still had "cleaning potential". The bubbling method is timing freindly. I mist when I home, I bubble when I am sleeping or not at home. It works well. Use a timer on your bubbler and you can include some settling while you gone as well.

As far as drying is concerned. I had trouble with bubble drying especially when I used the same tank for washing that I used for drying. Seems like I could never get all of the water out without first removing all of the bio and then cleaning out the residual water then put the bio back in to dry.

Now I use a separate dry barrel. I wash my bio using a standard stand pipe wash barrel, then when wash water comes out clean, I let the bio settle for a few hours, then it gets transferred to a drying barrel. It is an upside barrel with a pump. In the center of the barrel towards the top I use a cookie sheet that is suspended near the top.

The bio gets pumped via external piping to the cookie sheet where it then flows accross the cookie sheet. The bio is now a thin layer flowing over the sheet and it just cascades over the sides of the cookie sheet that is centered and suspendend inside the upper portion of the barrel.

I also have a cheap $6.00 5 or 6 inch fan that blows into the barrel and the airflow comes in direct contact with the thin layer of bio that is flowing over the cookie sheet. It dries the bio quickly.

I originally sprayed the bio inside a barrel with a fan blowing on the sprayed fuel, I found a thin layer of bio covering just about everything with 10 feet of the drying barrel inside my shop. It seems some of the mist would get suspended in the air and blown around by the fan. Did not seem very safe or very clean.

I also liked the separate barrel for wash and dry as I can have one batch in the processor, one in the wash barrel, and one in the dry barrel. So simple storage as well. The external piping is flexable pvc tubing to it makes a great nozzle for pumping into my truck or fuel container when all dry. I also have just a simple 20 micron automotive oil filter inline on that flex tubing so all of the bio that is pumped while drying runs through that filter continously. KD