2 batches of oil, both 60 gallon batches. One with a starting T of 6, one with a starting T of 8(KOH)
did HTAE on both, and got T to 3. Base stage, no seperation. One batch needed 1200g more to visibly seperate, the other 500g. Both batches started off super dry. Processor neutraized before each.
Heres the kicker....both batches only yileded about 50-55% I cant for the life of me figure out why. The only thing I can come up with is someone dumped gly in my barrels. but even then, i wash the oil with a hose before letting it settle out good, and loading the processor.
Any ideas on the yield and extra KOH anyone????????????????????

When you say "good and dry" what does that mean exactly?

both passed hpt and no vapor against a glass at 160F

hook
-this can only be caused by one of two things, caustic contamination of the wvo and or processor, or wet oil. buckeye was having a similar problem this week trying to get the wvo dry enough mind you his oil was in the T 30s if I remember, and he attributes the problem to a high concetration of monos. to make a longer story short it took something like 50 hrs to get the oil dry.
I have also experianced this , where the oil passes hpt but there is still what looks to be steam comming off the top, yet cold glass there was no condensation.
-I can see a manometer in the near future!
-I don't understand the very poor yield (thats enough to make a guy swear) given the T was only 3. unless there was water contamination along the line. How do you neutralize your processor? Tom

Tom,
The oil was def dry...very low humidity, forced air bubbling thru the oil showed no vapor at all on the outlet side against glass. Very clear oil once at 75F, but a little on the dark side. No steam at all under forced air. Air temp outside 50F and low humidity.

Rechecked final T 4 times, and even rechecked it from the sample after getting the poor yield.
The oil was all form 1 rest, and they swear they dont use any cleaners, but even if they did, the washing the oil should get rid of that. Leaving me to lean towards gly. I always suck the barrels dry as part of my service. If someone did dump gly, I would have sucked that all up as well. I have had a similar issue with the oil from this place before. Just not this bad. I still have some oil from this place left, looks like I will try an aggressive wash on the raw oil and take a T off the water drained to see if that is the issue. the yield is the part that is really killin me, I can deal with the challenge of figuring out what the problem is, the rest just pizzes me off.

More like T in the 50's Biotom

Hook, HTP is not an accurate enough test for AE or HTAE unfortunately, the fog test kind of works but we need something better (not sure what as of yet).

Finish T of only 3 using HTAE with starting point of 8 doesn't sound right, my guess is water and caustic contamination (more likely caustic hiding true FFA amount and counteracting your acid).

At this time I am just getting ready to start second stage HTAE on oil that started at 55T and dropped to 12.5T in one step with just 6.4% methonal and .025(m) for H2SO4, (same batch that Biotom is referencing) what was your methonal and acid amount?

50% methanol and mult of .10
Im reallly leaning towards gly contamination since the first batch had a T of 6, and worse yield than the 2nd batch which was T 8..the only difference is that I water washed the raw oil one more time between the 2 batches. All the oil was in a 275G tote and that is where I wash it. More washing....higher intial T, better yield from one batch to the next. make sense???

I have done extensive testing with glyverine and AE/HTAE and have discovered even trace amounts, .0001%, will screw the reaction. Maybe it is glycerine...

hook
-Byproduct is for sure a real possability! as Buckeye says, it won't take much to totally neutralize your acid. BUT always a but that does not explain the p-ss poor yield! When the yield is down the soap amount is up! If you think now, what causes the reaction to make soap! I can only think of one thing, water. I could be wrong and have been before but that is my guess at this point.
-another thing, you water wash your wvo prior to the ae treatment, if there was any by product in there, would it not turn milky (soap)

Buckeye
-YOU know, my memory is GOOD but short!

tom,I would guess it would depend on how much gly is in the oil....Ill try washing the bejeezus out of the remaining oil and see what happens. .but reintroduction of gly would also lead to increased soap production, correct???

I know this was some of the driest oil I have worked with. I really dont know what else it could be but gly

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyebiodiesel:
I have done extensive testing with glyverine and AE/HTAE and have discovered even trace amounts, .0001%, will screw the reaction. Maybe it is glycerine...

How could you possibly measure glycerine contamination down to one ten thousandth of one percent?

quote:

Originally posted by fabricator:

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyebiodiesel:
I have done extensive testing with glyverine and AE/HTAE and have discovered even trace amounts, .0001%, will screw the reaction. Maybe it is glycerine...

How could you possibly measure glycerine contamination down to one ten thousandth of one percent?

magic....

Actually it was added to the methonal/H2SO4, and I mixed far more than needed so I could get such finite amounts when blending with the WVO.

I was hoping there would be an amount that would actually be benificial to AE/HTAE as a mop for water much like the bentonite,
Apparently there isn't

But good information to know eitherway

Ta Da!

Opps, there is an extra zero in there, good catch Fab!
.001% will screw with the reaction

Tom,
I wash the oil because I have found that the T is more preditable, AE works better, and just generally makes the oil easier to work with...once its dry of course.

Hook, I have a batch in the processor that won't pass 27/3. I believe it is contamination, from someone dumping motor oil in the waste oil barrel. I understand UMO will not convert under any circumstances. Is that accurate? Great discussion all, jack

You are right, UMO will not convert at all. I surely hope someone isnt dumping MO in my barrels, if they are its a bunch..it would have to have been to cut my yield that far. I found about 30 gallons of partially converted bio in my glycerine barrels from the last 2 batches. That is after letting each batch settle for 24 hours each time. I just ran another batch, and same thing..about 65% yield. I expect to find maybe 10-15 gallons of bio in my glycerine drum from that batch once it settles for a week or so. Overall putting my yield at about 85%, but really making these batches a PIA. Luckily, Im out of the oil I collected form that place, but I need to go get more from the others

Used motor oil mixed with veg - It only takes a very small amount of used motor oil to turn the vegoil totaly black, even a quart of UMO in a barrel of veg will turn it noticably dark. There have been past posts about winterizing and/or extending biodiesel as well as improving the cloud/gell point by deliberatly adding some amount of used engine oil to the veg before processing, up to as much as 20%. The UMO does not interfere with the biodiesel reaction (black soot seems to drop out with the glycerin) as long as you make your alcohol/catalyst calculations based solely on the amount of vegoil in the blend.

If your veg oil is not black, or at least very very dark, I would more suspect your low yied to be caused by either excass water in your alcohol or the catalyst has become partially inert due to too much exposure to air.

If you have excess water from someplace you will make a lot of soap rather than biodiesel.

Tim, the oil is dry, but it is very dark. It is in the wash tank now. Will the UMO fall out with the soap or hang in there with the ME? Anything special to get along with it or without it? Thanks, and have a good thanksgiving, jack