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Hey bio don't throw those mason jars out!  That was the same result I got after mixing. The next day the titration should drop (depending on carbonate concentration) and the oil will be hazy from the water. This is where Tim's idea came in... I added some flour, mixed, and the next day Clear, Low titration WVO. What concentrations of Carbonate did you use? Bubbler Method- Very cool!  It seems like just another way of mixing the carbonate/WVO. Pushing everything up from the bottom. With the mason jars the soap ends up between water and WVO. With the bubbler it seems like its pushing everything UP. You might have something here that would eliminate Tim's flour method, if the oil is clear. |
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uniquewater's quote:
UW, I did the experiment 6 days ago and the emulsion still hasn't broken. I'll keep the jars for another week. The weather has been cool and rainy lately, monsoons have begun and the drought is broken (with a vengance). Maybe the weather variations between here and where you live have made a difference. Also, altitude might make a difference. 8000' here. I have an optomistic prediction about the bubbler/H2O/sodium carnonate discovery. I believe it will greatly reduce FFAs, as already proven by uniquewater and also remove water. I believe that the water will go into the emulsion and out of the top of the container. Maybe we can save the flour for cookies and convert the flash evaporator for another purpose, all in exchange for a very simple proceedure. Can't wait to find out. I've got some WVO (average titration but still good for an experiment) that got some rain water in it. Also, I'll be posting pics in the next few days. I'm just really busy the next few days so keep an eye out. walk softly, leave a small footprint and a big impression |
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Yeah, That emulsion didn't break without the flour. I don't think the bubbler will REMOVE the water. I'm thinking the way BioD bubbling acts with the water falling back down to the bottom (I haven't tried this yet with the WVO). Maybe the soap/impurities are preventing it from falling to the bottom? I won't be able to try this for another week or so. If you get to it before me... 1. Titrate before/after 2. "Fry Pan" test for water before/after I would also like to try the different concentrations of the sodium carbonate (SC). The only concentrations I've tried were 2TBS SC to 1cup water (Titration 13 to 0.5), then I tried with 1/2 TSP and the titration did NOT drop. Off topic-- How do you put pics within your post? I just can't figure it out, and the "Help" tab doesn't explain it.  |
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UW,
The bubbling in WVO is much different than in biodiesel. Since it is sending an emulsion to the surface of the container I have to think it would pick up all of the water in the WVO on it's way, up to a point depending on saturation. But, we'll see. I'll start with dry WVO, add some water and bubble to make sure it gets mixed (splatter test to make sure it's wet) and do the same mixture I did before in the 30 gallon barrel with titration before and after, finished up with a splatter test. As far as posting pics go here. walk softly, leave a small footprint and a big impression |
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Titration reduced by 40%.
I titrated the oil from the 30 gallon barrel that I had added 2 gallons of water with 2 lbs of sodium carbonate dissolved into it and bubbled with an aquarium stone for about a day. I skimmed about 3 gallons of soap off the surface. The soap contained lots of air bubbles and the stuff was like rising bread dough. The oil looks good. The oil titrated at 20 g/l KOH when I started and now titrates at 12 g/l showing a 40% reduction in catalyst need to make biodiesel (not including base). A pan fry/splatter test shows the oil is a little wet, but not soaked. I'll do another more controlled experiment this weekend with a goal of getting the titration down to about 5 g/l KOH. Will report back with results early next week. Thanks uniquewater. Sodium carbonate as an FFA reducer was a great idea. I'll order 50 lbs from my chemical supplier on Monday and report back with the price. walk softly, leave a small footprint and a big impression |
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uniquewater's quote:
You know I've still not stirred in the flour but I will tomorrow. How much should I use? walk softly, leave a small footprint and a big impression |
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OK guys and gals, I've started the big experiment that should prove everything.
I've got a 30 gallon barrel with 25 gallons of dry oil that titrates at 19 g/l KOH. I saturated 3 gallons of water with sodium carbonate and that took 10 lbs. The water couldn't take any more and it still had flakes of the stuff floating in it. I'm taking pictures the whole way and good notes. As soon as I added the saturated water, soap began to form on the surface of the oil. After 30 seconds of bubbling with an aquarium stone the froth began to form on the surface. I've got a pic after 30 seconds of bubbling. This should be good. Stay tuned. walk softly, leave a small footprint and a big impression |
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That was more like the concentration I used! I figured it to be about 3.0lbs/gallon. I would think your titration will drop to about 1ml. I did MIX my SC/water with the WVO then let it settle overnight. I added about 10% flour to WVO to clear it up. It sounds like you are really coming along with the Bubbling. I'm going to have to try that! BTW. Some chem or pool supply places call the sodium carbonate, Soda Ash. |
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I have results using the saturated sodium carb in 3 gallons of water using bubbler experiment.
I used 10 lbs of SC dissolved into 3 gallons of water and it acted much differently than my previous experiment that had 4 lbs dissolved into 2 gallons of water. First experiment reduced titration by 40% while second experiment reduced titraion by 50% using 6 more lbs of SC. Second experiment most of the soap sank to the bottom of the barrel,first experiment the soap came to the surface like a slow volcano, for easy removal. First experiment, the oil was a little wet when finished. Second experiment the oil was almost dry when finished. Very good results but I think I can do better. Next experiment will use 2 lbs SC/gallon of H2O as in the first experiment, but will use 5 gallons or so. I'll keep you informed. walk softly, leave a small footprint and a big impression |
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member 2008 Sponsor |
Was searching on-line for a source of cheap washing soda and ran across this web page about the differance between baking soda and washing soda. Indicates if BS neutrilizes 1 acid equivelent, washing soda will neutrilize 2. Baking soda PH is 8.1, washing soda is 11.
Some interesting soda ash (sodium carbonate) background info is here. The cost of sodium carbonate is a good bit higher than BS and it is not nearly as available in this area except as really expensive pool chemical (3 plus dollars/pound). Cheapest on ebay is $27.00 for 25 pounds of soda ash, plus shipping. I will have to stay with my 39 cents/pound generic boxes of BS, even considering that it takes twice as much I still come out ahead price-wise. |
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Wow, that's about 3 times the amount I pay! Maybe it has to do with shipping and Hazmat? I'll have to see if it is a Hazmat. (idea--> Sell Soda Ash on ebay  )You did the right thing counting the cost, I am a big number cruncher too, and wouldn't do it if it cost that much. I crunched some numbers between reducing the Titration with Baking soda and adding extra KOH during BioD production, and it actually would have cost me MORE to reduce with BS than just adding extra KOH. There is just more "bang for the buck" with KOH, like your example with "equivalent acids". |
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Tim c cook's post:
Tim, I just put in my chemical order to Univar and the price of SC is $24 for a 50 lb bag. I went by Leslie's Pool Supply in El Paso today and their best price to the general public is $49 for a 50 lb plastic pail. Find a chemical supply house and pay 50 cents per pound for twice the punch as BS. I've been experimenting with this stuff and it is versitile and it's going to do the trick. This process is going to be useful to those doing SVO, blending and biodiesel. I'm thinking it will improve cloud/gel point in biodiesel and used together with the glycerine WVO pretreatment will make superior biodiesel with wintertime qualities equaling #2 diesel. But then, I am a proven optimist. walk softly, leave a small footprint and a big impression |
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I suspect the problem is that there are just not that many swimming pools in rural Illinois bigger than kiddy pools, I am aware of only one pool supply business anywhere within a 50 mile radius so not much compitition to drive down the prices. Walmart has 5 pound plastic containers of sodium carbonate at about $16.00, local farm store has the same thing for $19.00, pool supply place will likely be even higher.
I will keep an eye out for a chem supply outlet. The only "washing soda" I have found is "Arm-n-Hammer" brand and it is actually just very expensive BS (5 pounds for 4 dollars and change) rather than SC. I will be in Arizona this winter, lots of pools there, may find some reasonable prices and stock up. So far my oil is not that high in FFA and I burn it directly as a blend so the only concern about FFA's is for possible long term acid dammage to metal parts, at 2 pounds BS/ barrel of oil (1 pound/barrel of SC) it would take me a couple of years to use up a 50 pound bag of SC, probably loose most of it to humidity here anyway. |
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Tim's post:
Holy smokes, Tim. I live in the middle of nowhere, too. Wally World, Lowe's and Home Depot all have SC for $6.50 for 5 to 6 lbs. About $1.10 per pound plus or minus. I know what you're thinking, "No town in the middle of nowhere has a Lowe's, Home Depot and Wally World" but it's a military town. You know, "War is good for business." Anyway, there is even a K-Mart here. But, let's not get political lest we wind up on somebody's snoop/listen/keystroke list. Sorry for the rant, hope they don't haul me away. Anyway, I'm excited about the experiments I've got lined up and hopefully will bear some fruit. BTW, the sweetie and I recently went to Roanoke and got a Jeep Liberty that seems to love my B100. I wish we could have hooked up earlier and I'd have dropped by to say hi. What part of the state are you in, Tim? walk softly, leave a small footprint and a big impression |
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A quick thought that I've had all along:
As the price of oil goes up, the supply of WVO will go down. Those with the ability to use problematic oil will be in a unique position. This thought is fueled by the fact that I have a lot of problematic oil so maybe, in this case, a problem today will be a blessing tomorrow. walk softly, leave a small footprint and a big impression |
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I know what you mean! Every time gas prices go up the media does another BioD segment. I'm sure the WVO competition will rise. I am working on delivered virgin soy tote prices now at a decent price. I'm going to give the "Bubble" technique a whirl this weekend. I think once we get some solid numbers and technique, we'll have to post a new topic. |
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You're right UW. I've been holding back until we've got more concrete results and numbers before starting the new thread. I'm taking lots of pics so it should make for a good show. I'm about to do one last experiment using 4 barrels with different concentrations of SC. Then we can get the new thread underway. walk softly, leave a small footprint and a big impression |
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I'm off on another adventure related to this topic. I've got a couple of barrels of WVO that got a few gallons of rain water in them.
So, I sprinkled in a couple of pounds of sodium carbonate, dry, and started bubbling. I'm thinking this will reduce titration and remove the water all in one easy step. We'll see. I'll let you know how it goes. walk softly, leave a small footprint and a big impression |
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