Neutrals Base/Base Procedure- Amazing! Pass the Warnqvest test using 16.3% methanol!

There has been a lot of talk lately about the base/Base method.
Some people are unable to pass the Warnqvest test in a single stage and have devised different Base/Base procedures. These Base/Base Procedures invariably use between 220 and 250ml methanol.

Neutral recently posted a formula for a Base/Base procedure that will pass the Warnqvest Test using only 163ml methanol.

Using this formula Neutral made biodiesel that passed the Warnqvest test from oil with an FFA content of 4% which is a KOH titration of about 8!

This weekend my good friend Mickey did a whole series of tests including testing Neutrals new Base/Base method.
It Works!
Biodiesel from WVO titrating 4.2 KOH that passed the Warnqvest test using only 163ml methanol

The formula is as follows:
First Stage:140 ml methanol per litre of oil for the first stage and 5.9g KOH (Adjusted for purity) plus titration times 1.15 in the first stage.
Second Stage: Use 1.1g KOH (Adjusted for purity) in 23ml methanol.

Total methanol consumption 163ml.

It will be interesting to see if it will work on a larger batch.

Have you pattented the method yet, so we can try it?

Bob

Hello Bob,

I suspect that if you have a reactor that is capable of making biodiesel that passes Warnqvest in a single stage then It would be able to successfully do this procedure as well.

No, I do not have a (Pat Pend). Yet.

was the samples washed and if so did they produce any middle layer?

Hello pappa

The first Warnqvest was performed about 45 minutes after mixing. It clouded but did not drop any precipitate.
The Second Warnqvest Test was performed after Washing and Drying. It clouded but did not drop any precipitate.
Washing formed no middle layer.

If one was using NAOH, would 5 grams plus the titration X 1.1 and the same split on the methonal as posted above work?

Tilly, I want to make sure that you read BigSky's question. I think the proper mixtures for NaOH would be more like --

First Stage:140 ml methanol per litre of oil for the first stage and 4.2g NaOH (Adjusted for purity) plus titration times 1.15 in the first stage.
Second Stage: Use 0.8g NaOH (Adjusted for purity) in 23ml methanol.

My math comes from:
5.9 / 7 * 5 == 4.2

5.9 is new first stage amount for KOH
7 is base KOH
5 is base NaOH.

4.2 is the same ratio of base NaOH as 5.9 of KOH.

Chris

Tilly,

I'm a bit curious, did Mickey add the catalyst to water before mixing it with the methanol or did he mix dry KOH with the methanol?

Hello Rick

Mickey only mixes KOH dry. Mickey assures me KOH really is much easier to mix than NaOH

Hello Chris

Yes, I purposley did not answer bigSky because I knew someone more Versital with Calculations would answer.
What you have written looks correct.

Thank you gentlemen !!. I have not tried a 2 stage process since I had a disaster a few months ago, but may give it a try with my next batch. This will be my first occasion to try a batch in the colder weather. Thanks again Chris and Tilly.

Hi Tilly,

Thank you for the information.

Tilly,

Nice work!

Can you describe you technique in more detail please?
What was % water content of oil?
What temp did you start at?
How much did temp drop by the end?
How long did you mix stage one?
How long did you mix stage two?
How did you mix?
How long did you settle stage 1?
Did you heat for stage 2?
Did you use a way of sepreating which avoids methanol evap.?
Anything else one would need to know to reproduce your results?

Thanks for showing us that 2 stage really does work!

In your opinion, what is the methanol % that would be needed to get the same degree of reaction under the same conditions except using single stage? In other words, how much methanol do you think it can same under these conditions?

Also, have you tested to see if 16.3% is the lowest methanol you can use and still pass, or is a lower methanol # still a possibility?

Also, is mikey planning to run a full sized batch this way to see if it works that way in his processor?

Andrew

PS. Did you realize that in your example you used 90.70% of cat and 85.88% of your methanol in stage one? Not so different from 80/20 90/10, at least in this case.

Tilly can you point me to the Warnqvest test please; thanks in anticipation...

Hello Bushpig

That is unusual, the Warnqvest Test thread seems to have disappeared!

I also posted it to Yahoo Biodiesel See it there.

OK, now it is sorted out

The Warnqvest Conversion Thread has been moved on this forum to a new list.

Hello Andrew

The oil was heated to around 120deg C and no popping occured.
As it dropped through 60deg C 1 litre (901g) oil was put into 4 different Dr Pepper Bottles with the appropriate Chemicals and given "40 good shakes"
The time was noted and the bottles were put in a hot water bath of no particular temp.
They were shaken over three hours whenever Mickey felt like it.
The 2 stage batches were allowed to settle for about an hour, the glycerine was carefully decanted and the second stage was performed similar to the first.

I showed several years ago that the 2 stage method really works.
The importance of this test is that I confirmed by replicating Neutrals work that showed that his two stage method is a meaningful method of reducing methanol consumption.

Geriatric Mouses are lible to do most anything.

Tilly,

Thank for getting back to me.

When you have a chance, would be willing to respond to these parts of my post?

quote:

In your opinion, what is the methanol % that would be needed to get the same degree of reaction under the same conditions except using single stage? In other words, how much methanol do you think it can same under these conditions?

Also, have you tested to see if 16.3% is the lowest methanol you can use and still pass, or is a lower methanol # still a possibility?

Also, is mikey planning to run a full sized batch this way to see if it works that way in his processor?

If not, no problem. I am interested in your ideas on these points.

Andrew

Hello Andrew

According to the test series I ran, Neutral's single stage "Just Scrape in" batch using 7g KOH + (Titration X 1.2) gave very similar results.

Mickey has done no other tests with Neutral's Base/Base method.

Gereatric mouses never make plans.

I can remember about 6 years ago I had lots of biodiesel questions that had no answers. I started designing and performing tests that helped answere these questions for me.
As you have lots of questions that do not have easy answers, I encourage you to think about doing some tests that will help answer these questions.
And then share the answer with us.

Mini-batches are a great way to perform meaningful experiments.

Tilly,

quote:

I encourage you to think about doing some tests that will help answer these questions.
And then share the answer with us.

Mini-batches are a great way to perform meaningful experiments.

Yes- there are lots of tests which could be done.

But I thought they could only be meaningful if you did them

Sadly, I have an appleseed.... so I need to see how to get my processor to reproduce the results I get in 1 litre batches. Then the one liter batches would be helpful to me in a practical sense.

So most of my testing is being done while I make actual fuel.

Seriously, I am really interested in knowing if you can reproduce neutral's results in a processor. If you can, then that will give me a target to reach with my processor. If not, I am curious how close you can come.

Andrew