Hi folks,

First, I've never made a drop of biodiesel in my life. I'm brand new to this. I started collecting WVO a couple of weeks ago with the intention of learning the ropes and building a small processor to fuel my thirsty coach, but in the meantime I stumbled across a few people who were, apparently, impressed by my grandiose scheme.

Now I've got a gas station owner who wants me to produce b100 that he can sell to customers. This little game of mine just got serious. He has some leads on WVO as do I; if we can round up enough, I'd like to flat purchase a BioPro 380. I figure I can produce about 300 gallons a week with this.

Of course there are legal issues I must navigate and testing procedures and licenses, etc, etc. I'll start digging into those but in the meantime, I could use some advice. Mainly, just what am I getting myself into? What is the likelihood the BioPro will produce fuel that will easily pass the full suite of ASTM D6751 tests? My feedstock is going to wind up being a mix of various types of oil for sure, as no one restaurant would be able to supply large enough quantities. I'm currently collecting hydrogenated shortening which I'm told I can process into bio for my own use, but whether it will pass the tests or not, who knows...

Anyway, could really use some advice and pointers on ability to produce licensed, legally saleable finished goods.

Oh boy, where do I start?

The Biopro should be able to make ASTM spec fuel, but you'll need to to do a minimum of tests on each batch to ensure that it has before selling it for use. For this, you should invest in a Gas Chromatograph. You can get them for about $7k. You'll also need to send samples out occasionally for full ASTM testing.

You'll also need a fuel truck to store/deliver the product. You'll need a driver or a CDL with Hazmat and Tank certs.

Where are you going to be making biodiesel? You can't make 300 gallons a week, sell it, and not attract the attention the officials. I'm fairly certain you won't be able to do this in your garage, but you'll have to check your local ordinances.

I hope you're making this in Florida or someplace else tropical. B100 from hydrogenated shortening will have a much too high cloud point to be used any other place in the winter.

Have you figured out how much it will cost you to make and how much you can sell it for? You need to make sure your economics work out first. The cost of making the fuel goes up considerably when done commercially. It's only cheap in a home brew scenario.

Good luck!

Thank you for the reply.

On the hydrogenated stuff: I realize this won't be suitable as b100 during the winter. I'd planned to mix with petro diesel in the cold season. Another question I had planned to ask later is, at what percent can it be used? B75? B50? less? How can I test the product to verify temperature usability & figure safe petro blend ratios? This applies especially if I wind up forgetting the business venture and producing for myself, as that will be my primary source of oil whereas if I start producing on a small commercial scale this will only be a tiny portion of my feedstock. (As a side note, this oil is still fully liquid at 30 degrees F...)

I appreciate the insight into the delivery. I hadn't considered that. I was going to deliver batches with a 1 ton pickup and bed tank. Clearly that would not pass muster, so I'll add this to my list of things to investigate.

I'm still working out the economics but so far it looks like a profit in the $1-$1.50 a gallon range. So it does work economically with a fairly short payoff, but that number may swing heavily depending on annual licensing fees, how often I have to send off for full ASTM testing, etc. Also, as more and more people get into this I expect restaurants will start charging for their WVO. My source has had 3 people other than myself approach him in the last month alone - one even offered to pay him. (I send so much business his way, though, he's still giving it to me.)

Hydrogenated oil biodiesel can separate out of diesel fuel at cold temperatures in any blend percent. Avoid using it in cold temperatures. Let the bio settle in a barrel and only use the clear bio off the top in cold temperatures.

This problem comes up for discussion every year at this time. Does the summer heat make their memory evaporate?

Don't forget, you MUST become a member of NBB to produce biodiesel for sale.

Thanks for some directions for good reading...

http://www.biodiesel.org/
http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/biodiesel_basics/

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&tp.../40cfr79_main_02.tpl

Can you please provide a link to support the statement:

quote:

you MUST become a member of NBB to produce biodiesel for sale.

All I can see is that the NBB Board has a Trademarked Logo.

But, fuelgrade Bio-Diesel just has to meet the ASTM D6751 and 40 CFR 79 Specifications for sale.

Hmmmm,

Also looking at this.

I can see why we would have strict regulations to protect "the population".

But, it sure seems as if the regulations make it extraordinarily difficult for the small producers (10-1000 gal / day) to break into the commercial market (and, yes, I agree with transportation safety).

quote:

Originally posted by cfunderburg:
Don't forget, you MUST become a member of NBB to produce biodiesel for sale.

That is inaccurate.

Murphy's right....
...It's not widely known, but there are folks SELLING ASTM quality fuel that bucked the system & said, "Screw you NBB!" and are still doing quite fine.

It's kind of tricky to get around, but it's doable.

-Graydon

Yep. A BioPro can definitely make ASTM grade fuel.

Check it out! This is really recent too..
http://biolyle.com/biopro/BioPro_Full_ASTM_tests.pdf

Just remember, making ASTM fuel is about 80-90% the feedstock used and 20-30% the machine you use to make it with.

You can have the greatest machine in the world, but if you feed it really wet, high free-fatty acid oil, yer gonna make crap.

Feed a BioPro feedstock with a water percentage of less than .5 and with an FFA% of less than 5% & you'll have a really good chance of hitting ASTM. Use the 80/20 method with the above feedstock in a BioPro & you'll REALLY get great fuel!

Enjoy!
-Graydon

How are they getting around the EPA tier 2 requirements? Bottling it as something other than biodiesel?

Super Duper Fatty Acid Methyl Esters! As an additive or something?

quote:

All I can see is that the NBB Board has a Trademarked Logo.

NBB has rights to the EPA Tier II certification.

quote:

But, fuelgrade Bio-Diesel just has to meet the ASTM D6751 and 40 CFR 79 Specifications for sale.

I believe that just qualifies it in the governements eyes as biodiesel. Anything less and its just fatty acid methyl ester (or ethyl esters if you swing that way). To qualify for the biodiesel credits you must make ASTM spec fuel, and the IRS will take a sample and test it (Or so I was told by the tax man himself).

....ok, here's how it works....

1) You send in a sample of fuel & get the ASTM Spec done on it to prove you can make it.
2) You submit your information to the EPA & IRS.
3) All the IRS cares about is that you have met the ASTM D-6751. All the EPA REALLY cares about is that you've met the D-6751 too. They know what biodiesel is...they've seen the stuff enough times.
4) The EPA sends you a certificate to produce Biodiesel but requests that you send them in the EPA Tier II Certification Data
5) You "never get around to sending it in".
6) The EPA has better things to do than track down people making Biodiesel that they know meets ASTM D-6751. They KNOW it's Biodiesel. They've SEEN the Tier II Certification before.
7) IF someone complains, then the EPA will look into it. Of course, they're "looking into it" could take MONTHS in fact YEARS. They may send you a note saying that "you really need to get that Certification sent in"....to which you acknowledge that you should.

You can play this game literally for years w/ the EPA.

I learned about this one day while on the phone with a guy who was looking at doing it. He'd talked to the EPA directly about this.

The EPA kind of operates like the Health Department. They only go after complaints.

So, if you prove you can make ASTM D-6751, and if no one really complains that you "just haven't gotten that certification sent in", then who cares?

If you happen to look at the newly published NBB map that Biodiesel Magazine puts out, you'll notice that there's quite a few factories missing....gee....wonder why that could be? Could it be that not every factory making Biodiesel commercially & selling it is registered with the NBB? Hmmmm....nah....couldn't be that....must've been a typo.....yeah right.

....and that's how it can be done.

Is it the "right" way to do it? Is it on the up & up? Probably not. But there's those that would argue that the NBB has a monopoly on the Tier II Certification Data that really was done with public check off funds & that means that if the data was done "with check off funds", then, ya know what? Technically it should be "public data".

It's a debate that's gone on for years in commercial Biodiesel.

My personal opinion is that the NBB is nothing more than the National Biodiesel Board of Soybean Farmers. ie. Their interest IS NOT in what's good for Biodiesel in the US, but what is good for SOYBEAN FARMERS! Look at the stink they've raised about several issues that would be detrimental to soybean farmers lately.

Anyway, consider this just food for thought....

-Graydon

quote:

EPA Tier II certification.

Hmmm..

Bumped into this website:
http://tinybiodiesel.com/

quote:

Since the EPA has declared BioDiesel to be atypical, everybody needs Tier 1 health effects testing, no exceptions.
If your revenues are more than $10 Million a year, you need Tier 2 health effects testing as well.
Tiny BioDiesel Producers only need Tier 1 data.

www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/additive/spring94.pdf

quote:

However, the number of companies producing atypical products is much less. If the
same small business provisions available for baseline/non-baseline F/FAs were also applied
to atypical F/FAs, then no data at all would be submitted for many atypical F/FA groups. For
this reason, special small business provisions applicable to atypical F/FAs are available only
to a subset of small F/FA manufacturers: those with less than $10 million in annual sales. For
their atypical F/FAs, these very small manufacturers are exempt from Tier 2 responsibility,
although they must still meet the basic registration and Tier 1 requirements. These
requirements fall between those applicable to small manufacturers of baseline/nonbaseline
products (basic registration data only) and the general requirements of the program for larger
manufacturers (basic registration, Tier 1, and Tier 2).

Here are some additional links:

http://www.mail-archive.com/sustainablelorgbiofuel@sust...ts.org/msg30465.html
http://www.biodieselnow.com/forums/p/15260/118898.aspx#118898

Ohhhh.
There seems to be some discussion about selling B99.9

http://www.biodieselnow.com/forums/post/119826.aspx

I might have to look at the B99.9 a bit more... and if that holds up, then one should also be able to follow with SVO99.9 and WVO99.9

I do commend the NBB for their work and investments.

However, everything seems to be organized such that the small producers are left out in the cold.

Yep. And that's exactly where the debate comes from. The small guys.

I've talked to countless "small" producers that have had to deal with this issue.

The NBB is definitely to be commended; however there are those out there that believe they're holding a monopoly on the testing data and that they're just using it to make a heck of a lot of money.

That's just what the consensus has been that I've seen. It's an interesting & hotly debated topic.

-Graydon

Oh my gosh! That's funny about TinyBiodiesel.com

I think I know the guy's that did it.
It's based out of American Fork, UT
..or as we in Utah say it, "Amarican Fahrk".

Too funny!
-Graydon

quote:

You'll also need a fuel truck to store/deliver the product. You'll need a driver or a CDL with Hazmat and Tank certs.

Why ? Biodiesel is not rated as a HazMat. You can plate a duelly commercial and stick a truck fuel tank back there or a tote if you want and deliver with that until you need tp upgrade.You will need a CDL (Commercial Driver's Liscence) though.
Until you blend ANY petro diesel into biodiesel it remains unclassified on the UN HazMat charts.
Once you blend into it a percentage of UN1202 or UN1203 class 3 flamable then it changes classification and becomes elligible for HazMat classification.

You guys rock. Thanks for the great discussion thus far. I'm soaking up every last word and learning a bunch here.

I have been thinking about this for the last week or so...

It seems as if the mix of

DOT/ASTM/EPA/NBB all adds a new wrinkle into things.

I was hoping to start a small business selling tankfuls of clean veggie oil to anybody that wants it.

I can now understand why SVO/WVO has gotten stalled on the EPA Testing.

If you look at 40CFR70.57
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&si....1.1.8.6.1.8&idno=40

quote:

(a) Vehicle and engine selection criteria. (1) All vehicles and engines used to generate emissions for testing a fuel or additive/fuel mixture must be new (i.e., never before titled) and placed into the program with less than 500 miles on the odometer or 12 hours on the engine chronometer. The vehicles and engines shall be unaltered from the specifications of the original equipment manufacturer.

As I understand it, the only vehicles rated to run on high concentration Vegetable Oil mixes are the Military Trucks. Especially the older Deuce and a Half trucks.

Essentially all other vehicles do best with some kind of preheat system, and thus would be untestable in the eyes of the EPA.

Anyway, hopefully one could find some manufacturer support for doing the testing.

-------

However, it would seem like some of this testing would be the basic function of the govermnent.

quote:

Originally posted by Legal Eagle:

quote:

You'll also need a fuel truck to store/deliver the product. You'll need a driver or a CDL with Hazmat and Tank certs.

Why ? Biodiesel is not rated as a HazMat. You can plate a duelly commercial and stick a truck fuel tank back there or a tote if you want and deliver with that until you need tp upgrade.You will need a CDL (Commercial Driver's Liscence) though.
Until you blend ANY petro diesel into biodiesel it remains unclassified on the UN HazMat charts.
Once you blend into it a percentage of UN1202 or UN1203 class 3 flamable then it changes classification and becomes elligible for HazMat classification.

I did not know that. Thanks for the education.

What about storing it? When I spoke to my local fire marshal, he said that they treat biodiesel like diesel.