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Originally posted by Biotom:
I think there is sufficient info here now to start testing the mechanics of this proceedure I will run some 1 ltre test batches in the next day or two and report back. What I really want to test is the part where you add up to 40% more wvo + the required methanol at the end of the process (no extra caustic) If this part works as presented, look at the savings on caustic, Tom


Tom,

I want to know how you run 1 litre batches?

Do you have a tiny reactor on the kitchen table??? Big Grin

James L
 
Location: Central Alabama (Marion Junction) | Registered: February 20, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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James
- I have an electric roaster that I put water into, then mix what I want in glass jars and process, I have to shake for mixing. the roaster will hold 5 or 6 jars depending on size, so I can run several variations at the same time. Today I splurged and bought an electric kettle so I could heat the wvo for this series of tests could have used a pot but the kettle has a good pour spout.
-I do the testing in my shop, I'm not allowed to do biodiesel testing in the kitchen anymore, I've been banned. one hot pan test that turned into a smoke test that set off the F alarm, and one whw in the microwave with very wet oil, the steam explosion turned the dish of oil upside down Eek Big Grin Tom


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Tom - With you on that! Unfortunately, I'm down until March 22 (wife insists spiral staircase and new deck get built). I can probably do some testing in the kitchen over that time span though as I think I have everything here to do it except the oil. I'll grab 5 gallons this weekend.
 
Location: New Orleans | Registered: December 31, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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dennis
-I don't even check my honey do list anymore, there arn't enough years left to geter all done Eek Big Grin Tom


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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We should probably outline testing variables so we can cover a lot of ground and if something looks promising we can then try to replicate each others work. I have fresh NaOH, KOH and methanol. I usually T around 10 +-3.
 
Location: New Orleans | Registered: December 31, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Biotom:
Rick Double D
- Create glop in the Pump, that I can agree with if you process with Naoh. the more methanol that is passing through the pump, the less the volume of wvo. This could result in supper converted oil before the wvo leaves the pump. add to this, hot pump instant methanol vaporization, vapour lock and water from the caustic/ methanol reaction, bingo "Glop IN THE PUMP" Tom


Tom, I don't recall anyone using KOH ever complaining of glop.

Rick
 
Location: Cowboy Country | Registered: December 06, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Dennis
-I just checked and I can get 10 1 qt jars in the roaster bath, so for every sample I do AAF I will do one in the normal manner so I can compare the difference. Batch size will be 500ml (oil) + chemicals. I will mix new chemicals tomorrow, and start the process. Any suggestion are welcome. Tom


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by J Long:
Ok, I'll succumb to the point that titration of wvo for biodiesel is an industry standard using chemicals which give a color changed based on pH. You can argue this point forever, but all the indicators being used at the moment are based on a pH change.

When we perform a FFA titration, the color change occurs as a result of the Hydronium ion concentration tipping just past equilibrium with the indicator. It just happens that the color change occurs at about 8.5PH with phenolpthalein. PH is technically a measure of the activity of hydrogen activity in aqueous solutions. Since the oil and alcohol in our titration is not aqueous, PH can't be measured. Often it is said that "the oil is brought up to a ph of 8.5 or so". I'm guilty of having said that myself just to make it easier to understand. In hind sight, I should'nt have ever said that since it's not totally correct. Some folks get lost in the nomenclature and understanding Hydronium ions and Hydrogen activity, using PH seems to simplify some of the understanding even if not totally correct.

I'm not disputing the merits of Paddy's process. There's more than one way to skin a cat.
 
Location: central virginia | Registered: March 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Tom, ditto... going to dry some oil today. Dry to HPT pass, continue drying until vapor test pass. I do record SG although I understand morphologies (see DD Wink ) make this measuring technique of questionable value. I intend to apply same methodology to AE as well including with and w/o sodium bentonite.
 
Location: New Orleans | Registered: December 31, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Double D:
quote:
Originally posted by J Long:
Ok, I'll succumb to the point that titration of wvo for biodiesel is an industry standard using chemicals which give a color changed based on pH. You can argue this point forever, but all the indicators being used at the moment are based on a pH change.


I'm not disputing the merits of Paddy's process. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

I totally agree with DoubleD, I am also not disputing Paddy's process, I was simply pointing out that titration does not determine the pH of vegetable oil and that missunderstanding is everywhere in this industry/hobby.
pH measurement is used as a small part of the titration method, however the result of the titration is expressed either in volume or mass based units.
 
Location: East Yorkshire | Registered: January 14, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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If I can get someones take on this it would be appreciated. Drying, I make the assumption (probably wrong) that HPT leaves us with 'approximately' 500ppm water. I weigh the oil at this point. I further dry until vapor test pass. I weigh the oil again... do a little math and come up with approximately 100-200ppm.

Is this sound?

Going to clean out the shed (what a mess) and set up mini lab

l8tr
 
Location: New Orleans | Registered: December 31, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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dennis
-do you weigh heat wiegh until there is no differance in weight


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Tom

I use to... but to much weighing involved. Now I do it as explained above. I'm drying right now and making a spreadsheet to calculate the ppm. I do not vouch for the accuracy... just that it weighs less than HPT. It should be dry in about two hours I will post the spreadsheet so someone can see if I screwed up... may be handy.
 
Location: New Orleans | Registered: December 31, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hey guys, I dont understand all the complications here. Maybe Im just slow, sorry. lol

If I may recap what I have read and understand about this method.

In short:
1. We titrate our oil, normally
2. Use that titration to calculate the amount of base/methoxide
3. We then mix up the amt req for our batch and add to rx'r
4. in other tank, we heat our wvo that has been dried/filtered etc.
5. we add 10% to other rx'r containg methoxide/meoh
6. we begin mixing and continue to add the rest of our hot WVO
7. when finished adding we shoul pass 3/27 in short order

Doing this method I can easily see having some conversion VS no conversion with "our method" You are adding wvo to a very high conc of catalyst and meoh thus eliminating FFA salt rx'n. Then, once the rx'n is done, you drain glycerin and do a second rx'n. No matter what, you still have FFA's and will be wasting them by not doing an AE. Thus 100% conversion is not possible....

How can this procedure possibly convert 35 T oil and pass the 3/27 test w/o doing at least one more rx'n. Is there another rxn?? Or is the methoxide conc soo high that it rx's with the ffa's and still has enough available to catalyse the rx'n. What about all that soap? Where is it? How do they wash?


Before I started AE I could not get seperation from WVO that titrated over 15 koh. Granted maybe it wasnt dry or maybe the ffa salts caused it, IDK. All I had to do was add water and taadaah it seperated and I could start over. OFF topic but point is

I do believe that if you dont want to do an AE and have high FFA's this method will give you better success than our standard method. I can do everything in one tank, this method definetly requires two tanks and more labor and a paddle mixer. NO way im pump mixing methoxide through my pump into a tank that is only filled 15% and not pressure sealed w/ a nitrogen/co2 blanket. Thats a bomb.


02 duramax, bio since 04/08
 
Location: St Pete Florida | Registered: December 29, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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tom

take a look at this... saved in excel 97-03 I can save it in any version including excel 2007 or 2010.

I primarily use my old Ohaus Dial-A-Gram triple beam (and the digital to confirm it tends to bounce i.e., .22 .23 so I adjust the digital readings to match the old analog provided they are close).

I don't know if this makes any sense or if I screwed something up but have a look.

Excel SpreadsheetWater_Test.xls (20 Kb, 31 downloads)
 
Location: New Orleans | Registered: December 31, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hootet

quote:
NO way im pump mixing methoxide through my pump into a tank that is only filled 15% and not pressure sealed w/ a nitrogen/co2 blanket. Thats a bomb.



-Thanks for jumping in here, but Bomb kind of gets my attention Big Grin Eek can you explain more on this.
-your summery of the process is the way I understand thatjamesrl is doing it now. If you have time to watch the video from the first post, it kind of put a different spin of the process for determining the caustic requirement to achieve good conversion, I'm not so sure it is different than what you do after the AE process to figure out the amount of caustic you require. Tom


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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lol very funny tom... luv the faces!
 
Location: New Orleans | Registered: December 31, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Read...

"Draw 100% of the methoxide in to the reactor then shut off the reactor outlet valve, using the pump deliver the remaining wvo via the high pressure nozzle of the eductor at 12m/sec. The eductor will come into its full power as the oil rises to the set volume. When the reactor is fully loaded open the bottom valve to start recycling. The opening of the bottom valve starts the timing." --jamesrl

Two-Stage Eductor



No BOMB
 
Location: New Orleans | Registered: December 31, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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There is no 10/90... just load and load. The reaction goes critical immediately upon loading the first drop of oil. Note: An properly sized single stage eductor will mix at approximately 5x flow rate i.e., flow rate 10gpm = 50gpm mixing. Not sure with the 2-Stage but probably on the order of 7x.
 
Location: New Orleans | Registered: December 31, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Dennis
-the 10% IS required for those who use the GL processor. That processor requires fluid movement to create the suction at the venture fitting.
-the spread sheet is good, but how can you determine the water content of the initial sample unless you h w h w h w until two consecutive w are the same value? Tom


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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