The "shake with water" test is not applicable to OCH fuel as you appear to have found out.

The fact that OCH fuel appears to be safe to use though it contains a lot of alcohol, soap, unreacted oil and partly reacted oil seems to be proof that unwashed, poorly converted biodiesel will not harm motors.

Regarding the reaction continuing for long periods in unwashed fuel, I do not believe this happens. The fact that glycerine continues to come out over a long period can be explained by the fact that it becomes less soluble as the alcohol evaporates.

quote:

The fact that glycerine continues to come out over a long period can be explained by the fact that it becomes less soluble as the alcohol evaporates.

This has been my belief for some time. A couple months ago I took freshly made unwashed biodiesel, flashed off the methanol by heating to 250F, decanted the clean-looking biodiesel from above the "instantly" condensed layer of glycerin, and nothing at all has settled out since. When I let the methanol "naturally" evaporate from my unwashed biodiesel, the glycerin continues to appear for 6 weeks or longer, but at a declining rate. I assume there's still soap left in the biodiesel, which I don't believe will harm my engine. This supports the OCH assumptions to some extent.

OCH,

I'm new to this but so far I like your formula for its combination of shear simplicity, low cost and apparent lower risk compared to all other VO alternatives.

Chemistry is not my strong suit so I hope the following is'nt a stupid idea.

I was wondering if you could use KO (potash fertilizer) instead of the KOH in your formula. This would allow you to use alchohol that has some water in it. Th KO reacts with water (aggresively) to form KOH. Any excess KO could be filtered out of the alchohol before subsequent mixing of the alchohol into the VO. I think you should be able to end up with a water free mixture of alchohol and KOH per your formula.

I think this may be useful if it easier and/or cheaper to obtain a lower concentration alchohol to use for your formula?


Dan

Potassium fertlizer will most likely be potassium chloride, of no use as a catalyst for the biodiesel reaction. If you want a dry catalyst use sodium methoxide.

Here is a cut and paste from Wikipedia regarding Potash. Hope it posts ok.

I think the cool thing about using K2O is that it can be used to get the last bit of water out of the alchohol with ease and.... the products of reaction are exactly the first part of the Masters formula (pure alchohol and KOH). It is more than just a drying agent.



Potash
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Potash

Potash (or carbonate of potash) is an impure form of potassium carbonate (K2CO3) mixed with other potassium salts. Potash has been used since antiquity in the manufacture of glass and soap, and as a fertilizer. The name comes from the English words pot and ash, referring to its discovery in the water-soluble fraction of wood ash.

It is today principally produced by mining suitable deposits which are found throughout the world.

The term has become somewhat ambiguous due to the substitution in fertilizers of cheaper potassium salts such as potassium chloride (KCl) or potassium oxide (K2O), to which the same common name is now sometimes also applied. In addition, potassium hydroxide (KOH) is commonly called "caustic potash", an additional source of confusion.

The element potassium derives its English name from potash. A number of chemical compounds containing potassium use the word potash in their traditional names:

potash fertilizer, potassium oxide, K2O
caustic potash, potassium hydroxide,KOH
carbonate of potash, salts of tartar, or pearlash potassium carbonate, K2CO3
chlorate of potash, potassium chlorate, KClO3
muriate of potash, potassium chloride, KCl
nitrate of potash, or saltpeter potassium nitrate, KNO3
sulfate of potash, potassium sulfate, K2SO4

Dan

I've been watching this thread for about a year now and the time has come to put it to use. I'll be running my rig on it in about 2 weeks. Hats off to OCH for coming up with a great idea. (Nobel prize? Future patent a la Tilly?}

But, I have a question. Biodiesel is a biodegradable product with a shelf life of about 1 year. What is the estimated shelf life of the Master's Formula?

Dannybanany

You have been tricked. The world of fertilizer is not the real world. Fertilizers must all be labelled according to the concentration of the materials of interest in them. This could be potassium chloride, potassium sulphate, potassium nitrate etc. All these have different molecular weights so farmers could not easily compare the products for quantity of the element they were interested in, potassium. For some reason lost in history it was decided to standardize the reporting in terms of the oxide, KO, even though such a material is not available in the commercial world.

The same thing happened with phosphorous where the unit PO is sometimes used.

In Australia labelling is now in terms of the elements, which seems more enlightened. By the way, if the oxide of potassium were available it would be K2O, not KO.

It was not just you that was tricked but also Wikipedia which talks about K2O as being an oxide, then in the same sentence calls it a cheap salt. Clearly they don't know what they are talking about. You cannot even buy K2O as a laboratory reagent. I think it has been shown to exist under some laboratory conditions but is not a stable material. KOH is stable and an item of commerce. It is however very corrosive and would never be used as fertilizer - too dangerous.

Neutral,

You're correct...the only reference I found the existance of pure K2O states that it has to be stored in kerosene because it is so reactive.

Here is another idea along the same direction...could CaO (quicklime) to do a similar trick to that I originally intended. The trick being to remove excess water from alchohol and then after converting water and CaO you have CaOH (slaked lime) which might be the caustic for the partial esterfication of the VO. This might be a variant on the Masters formula if it works.

I think quicklime is relatively cheap and available.

This idea is a big maybe??? Wich I knew more chemistry.



Dan

If you use quicklime, CaO, you will certainly remove water, the product being slaked lime, Ca(OH)2. CaO will probably also remove FFA from veg oil, the product being calcium soaps. These are not soluble in water and would need to be filtered out. Could be messy.

CaO does not dissolve in alcohol so the usual biodiesel reaction with NaOH could not be done, either to make biodiesel or for the Masters Formula.

I'm not changing the subject here, I'm (hopefully) enhancing it. Info on removal of water from ethanol and methanol seems to be scattered around this forum with no real focus. I've read about quick lime and found great advice on zeolite but there are very few working links that point to vendors and no focal point.

I'm going to start a new thread on this subject that might boost interest in the Masters Formula. It will be an easy problem solver for those dealing with gravy, with your help. Please follow and offer your advice.

Neutral,

Is there a way to tie any excess water up in a VO fuel(not neccessarily remove it or convert it) so that it won't create the usual problems but... that will allow it to go to steam during combustion?

Dan

The ability to take water into solution, usually regarded as harmless, varies with the type of fuel. Oil Can Harry's fuel has a remarkable ability to absorb water into solution. I have been able to get 4% water into fuel at room temperature, made with new oil, without the fuel going hazy. This is extremely unusual. Addition of alcohol, especially isopropanol, enables biodiesel to hold a small amount of water. If biodiesel is still hazy after long settling addition of a little isopropanol may clear it. Addition of alcohol helps petroleum fuels to absorb a little water. Veg oil is different however - I do not believe that the improvement that can be made to it by the addition of alcohol is significant.

I've started the new thread and hope you'll include your experiences and links about water removal in this location, as well. I've just found out how difficult cut and paste is in this forum. Bummer.

Anyway. the new thread is under "water removal-links-experiences" Please join in even if you have to retype.

quote:

CaO does not dissolve in alcohol so the usual biodiesel reaction with NaOH could not be done, either to make biodiesel or for the Masters Formula.

Neutral, could you elaborate for me a little on the following.

Step 1, CaO + Alchohol containing a little water, result is dry alcohol + Ca(OH)2 + excess CaO.

2) Filter out excess CaO which is insoluable in the alcohol. result now is dry alcohol + Ca(OH)2

3) Add solution from step 2 to WVO.

Will the Ca(OH)2 in the alcohol solution of step 2 be capable of performing the same role as the NaOH in the Master's formula?

Dan

It goes wrong at step 2. The Ca(OH)2 will not dissolve to any appreciable extent in alcohol so will be filtered out with the excess CaO.

So after step 2 including filtering we should have dry alcohol?

In your opinion what is the most practical and most economical method of obtaining the very dry alcohol called for in the Masters formula?

Is the 100% dry alcohol required for the Masters formula?

How does the water contained in the VO effect the the resulting fuel?

If you have dryer oil can you have more water in the alchohol?

Your replys are really appreciated.

Dan

The most practical, and economical, method to obtain water free ethanol is to get E85. This is 85% waterfree ethanol and 15% gasoline. Works like a charm to make OCH fuel. Only thing to think about is to increase volume by 15%.

Paul

dannybanany...Water can be remove from WVO by heating it to 150 F for 1/2 hour and allowing to cool for 24 hrs. This will cause the water to fall out of the solution. Then, siphon the waterless oil off the top or drain the water from the bottom using a spigot installed at the botton of the container. Girlmark's work on biodiesel wash barrels (stand pipe barrels, especially) might help.

To remove water from ethanol to get 200 proof (100% pure) ethanol get 3A Zeolite molecular sieve,(the 3A indicating angstrom or a porosity size that will absorb water but not ethanol). In the USA Zeolite can be purchased from Adcoa in Calif. at 800-228-4124. There are several locations across the pond where Zeolite is plentiful, also. Do an internet search for Zeolite or "molecular sieve". You'll need synthetic Zeolite as this is actually a natural mineral, as well, that is commonly ground up and used for the removal of stink from everything from smelly socks, dank cellars to cat boxes. This is not what you are looking for. Get synthetic 3A.

priespa1... I wish I could find E85. It would make my Master's Blend easy. I live close to oil country (west texas) and not corn country. Ethanol motor fuel does not exist within 500 miles of an oil rig, as far as I can tell. You good folks across the pond have a much better energy policy that is not run by honchos from big oil families.Lucky you.

Please drop links of these water removal discussions at the thread I've started on this subject on this forum. "water removal-links-experiences"

Hope this helps.

bio... Yes, we have a more healthy energy policy. But we still pay a lot more for fuel than you do. Actual fuelprices here now:

B100: 9.95 SEK/litre, equals to US$ 4.91 per gallon.
Diesel: 11.09 SEK/litre, equals to US$ 5.47 per gallon.
Unleaded gas: 11.41 SEK/litre, equals to US$ 5.63 per gallon.
E85: 7.93 SEK/litre, eqauls to US$ 3.91 per gallon.

Then again, most of it (about 70%) is taxes.

Paul

The masters formula looks interesting.

Already using ethanol blends E85 and E98 in a spark ignition racer I like it alot.

I am doing very small batch experiments...

I am trying to combine a Acid/Base two step.. Using Ethanol (E98) and glycerine retraction on the first (acid) as well as the second (base) step.. I am trying to come up with a system that uses the least amount of ethanol as possible...

The total yeild may be lower by draining glycerine twice but the cost per finished product will be lower and we have a use for glycerine even as a fuel heating the production..

Its more cost effective to use less reactants and tolerate more usable byproducts when they can help production...

A mix of used petrol oil is being considered too... Settle filtering as well as true filtering will be done seperately and the petro mixing will be post bio production... Only the thinner components of the used motor oils will be used with the thicker left overs getting used just like the glycerine...

I have already made some decent E98 "polished" and thinned WVO and "polished" used motor oil blends...

Weeding out the best of our waste (hydraulic/ATF/motor oil etc) and using it as feed stock and the left overs for production heat.. Then doing the same to the free WVO we get makes sense..