Hello Oil Can Harry,
This question is kind of off topic, but I was wondering where you get your ethanol and how much you pay. I live in near Roseburg and I would prefer to use ethanol, instead of methanol like I have been. Any help is appreciated!

Oil Can Harry -- Never fear, I intend to use your formula in the manner you intended. It is just that E85 is the cheapest ($1.70/gal) method of obtaining dry ethanol. I will be using your original amount of 250ML/L of ethanol and 4 grams/L of KOH. the extra small amount of gasoline will only amount to 3% of the total fuel volume, this should not present any problem as it is known to blend with WVO, diesel, biodiesel kerosine etc. Most vehicle manuals state Regular gasoline can be blended with diesel up to as much as 30% for winter use. Several folks on the vegoil side of this forum are regularly blending 20% regular gas (RUG) and WVO on an ongoing basis with no problems so I have no problem with this small amount of 3%, I dought that the small amount of extra thinning it will produce would even be measurable outside of lab testing.

As for blending -- from other posts, and testing done by others - any ethanol blend will only stay reliably blended if the amount of dry ethanol is less than about 10%, the small additional amount of RUG is only an additional 1.5%, this leaves 88.5% wvo as a lubricant, I am willing to accept any small risk by testing with my own vehicle..

tim

I'm not sure and OCH please chime in if I'm wrong.

I think the gas in the E85 may screw up the reaction and you would not end up with the intended result of the Masters Blend.

Taz -- don't think this is a problem. There is a thread by dualfuel this last winter indicating he was mixing in as much as 25% used engine oil into his WVO prior to making biodiesel (here). All the ingrediants were based on the normal amounts of WVO/METH/LYE, the UEO was simply added to a normal reaction, the end result was good biodiesel with a much lowered gell point plus a 25% increase in fuel volume.

The soot from the UEO ended up in his glycerin, I can't get the soot to end up in the glycerin but otherwise my 1 ltr tests have worked well.. Apparently the exhaust was a bit more petro-smelly, otherwise all worked as expected.

I should be receiving my KOH this week and will start 1 ltr tests.

Hello Taz

The group at Idaho were using ethanol with 5% petrol which they said did not affect the reaction.
Apparently all you will need to do is take into account the lower ethanol content.

Tim & Tilly

Hope you are right, but I thought I had read somewhere on this site that petrol products could effect the process. If I remember it had to do with collecting WVO and making sure it was clean as someone had a batch go bad and the answer given had to do with UEO in the WVO.

I like the idea of adding UEO to the process as my truck uses 14 quarts every 3000 miles. It would be nice to recycle it into the fuel tank if it can be done safely.

OK. I'm unabashedly asking what is perhaps an uninformed question.

At the temps I am heating my WVO to in my aux. fuel system, I am not worried about the viscosity. I am looking into blends because I am worried about improving atomization and reducing the potential for longterm coking.

I have read that a blend of 91% WVO and 9% ethanol (95%) heated to 176*F will approximate both the viscosity and atmoization of diesel. What could be used in place of ethanol? And is it as simple as mixing the two together with a paint mixer or something?

Also, what other factors related to burning WVO in a DI engine should I be concerned about in your opinions?

Casemaster, and all others seeking to change the direction of The Masters Formula thread....

Look folks, this is not about using straight vegetable oil, or any damn mixtures of gasoline and waste vegeatble oil, or even mixtures about using ethanol and wvo............

It is about cracking heated vegetable oil with KoH and Ethanol,and puting it into equilibrium and nothing more.......

So please, no more talk about cutting with gasoline, mixtures of ethanol and wvo, or even mixtures of diesel and wvo, as these topics to not belong in this thread....

Oil Can Harry

Sorry Oil Can Harry, but you forgot to put a (Pat Pend) on the process
Now these people are going to wreak havoc with The Masters formula, and when their cars start growing "Tits" poking up in the air they are going to start "Bad Mouthing" it!
This is indeed a sad day for the Biodiesel world and the "Masters Formula" in particular!


Hello casemaster
The reason mixing a thinner with WVO improves atomization is because it lowers the viscosity of the fuel.
To say you are not concerned about viscosity, only better atomization is like saying you are going swimming but are not going to get wet.

If anyone is considering variations of OCH method, together with blending, a better place to post might be on "Safe WVO diesel blends" which already deals with this topic. And incidentaly E85 works perfectly as the source of ethanol in the OCH method.

bump

Oil Can Harry this is brilliant!!!

I'm only new to making bio & have 2 x 150lt batches so far. But already I'm having issues with glycerin disposal which will only get worse once I start making larger quantities.

Your "Masters Formula" solves all of these issues & will lower the cost of the end product compared to Bio.

The process is simple but obviously depends on the feed stock. Feedstocks with high FFA will not be suitable & there must a level where you cannot use this method. Have you carried out titration tests to find a limit of the level of FFA that will work with your method?

Secondly, do you know what the minimum operating temp would be for the end product?

Last question...do you filter the oil/fuel before or after processing? What micron rating do you use?

Many thanks....cant wait to try this!
Tony

Tony,

I've been running OCH fuel for a while without problems. My feedstock is pretty good, titrates at 1 - 2 ml.
I use NaOH as catalyst (3 g/litre oil) and E85 instead of pure ethanol. E85 is a mix of 85% waterfree ethanol and 15% gasoline.

I've had a bottle in the refrigirator for a couple of days at +4C, and it is okay at that temperature. I threw a bottle in the freezer at -21C and that froze solid. So, down to +4C is okay.

I coldfilter the oil before processing it, don't know the micron value, byt it is a sock made from an old bed sheet. After processing it goes through a 20 micron filter on the way into the tank of my van.

If you're in no hurry, you can do the process at room temperature. I've been thinking of doing a 1000 litre batch in one of my collection tanks, just letting it sit and give it a stirr now and then...

Paul.

Thanks Paul,

My feedstock should be fine....it also titrates at 1.

I've got an appleseed processor which I'll use to heat the oil & mix as per a usual BD reaction. From there I plan to pump it into a storage tank & filter ready for use.

Where I live its mid winter & gets down to 1 - 2 oC on really cold nights so I might have an issue (possibly). The BD is fine at that temp, but starts to solidify around the zero mark in the freezer. I havnt had any problems with the larger quantities though.

What type of vehicle do you run? Do you have any problems with cold starting?

Manyt thanks

Tony

Tony,

I have not had any problems at all with cold starting. It smokes (white smoke) for maybe 10 seconds or so when the temp has been down to 12 - 13 C, but no starting problems.
I run it in a Chevy 6.2.

As the temps drop here, I'll probably mix in some dino or RUG just to be on the safe side on the gellpoint. It rarely gets colder than -10C here, and a 10% RUG blend would probably hold for -18C, it does so for WVO.

There are two things to be aware of when doing OCH fuel;
1. Make sure the oil is dry. Water in the oil makes soap and thats not what we want.
2. Be gentle on the NaOH/KOH if your oil is not absolutely dry.

If your oil is dry, then you can go up a bit on the catalyst, and thus get a better conversion. This will give you a lower viscosity.

If your oil is wet you'll get lots of soap. You still might get a lower viscosity but you'll also get a higher gelpoint

Pre-filter your oil. This will take out all the yucky stuff that has a lot of water in it.

Paul

Neutral The Diff Tilly Oil Can Harry et. al.

I'm new to this forum, but thought that Y'all might be interested in this paper.

http://www.shortcircuit.com.au/warfa/paper/paper.htm

Waste Vegetable Oil As A Diesel Replacement Fuel
Phillip Calais* and AR (Tony) Clark**
* Environmental Science, Murdoch University, Perth, Australia, pcalais@ieee.org
** Western Australian Renewable Fuels Association Inc, tony.clark_NO-SPAM@arach.net.au

Scroll down to >>> Properties of Triglycerides as Fuels

I recommend the whole paper but this is directly to the chase. (I Think)
Down a ways, There is a paragraph that says something like this

Another method is to emulsify the oil or fat with ethanol.
Goering [12] found that eight parts of soybean oil, when emulsified with two part ethanol and five parts of 1-butanol as stabiliser, performed as well as diesel fuel and was able to start a cold engine.
The cost was calculated (in 1981) to be $0.40 a litre as compared to $0.30 – 0.35 per litre for diesel.

As the soap "remains in solution", does that mean if water is added it will make an emulsion?

In effect, the soap in solution in the "Masters Formula" is no different to good quality unwashed Bio....is that correct? Just looking at my options & costs of this vs unwashed Bio.

Tony

This fuel is more tolerant to the accidental addition of water than any other that I am aware of. With good new oil you can add about 3% water and get no cloud or separation. With UCO the fuel would contain more soap to start with and might hold less water.

Thanks Neutral,

I'll give it some tests with various amount of H20.

The reason I asked the question, is I tried the Bio water test on the OCH fuel......lots of emulsion! Obviously the soaps are getting burned off in the fuel. So as far as the soaps are concerned, there should really be no difference between unwashed BIO & OCH fuel.

Unlike unwashed BIO, I assume that the reaction cannot continue with OCH fuel as the catalyst has all been used up?

Tony