Thats great, thanks. I am having a hard time deciding to run wvo ( canola ) mixed with %50 diesel or to mix up some of the Masters Formula. Both will cost about the same, but I am stuck on how well one or the other will perform in the cold. I would have thought that biodiesel ( whatever recipe ) would have performed better in cold weather ....

It was Terry Syd who said on this forum early that 4g KOH per litre might be more than enough for new oil and suggested 3g plus titration. Following this thought, knowing that 5g NaOH will get you a very full conversion to biodiesel, and 7g KOH will do the same, we can have a stab at calculating how much should be needed for the OCH reaction.

My rough gc test shows the OCH method gives about 35% conversion to esters so, allowing that the same proportion of KOH would be required, the amount needed is 2.4g for new oil. I have tried this amount and it seems to work exactly the same as 4g. I suggest therefore using 2.4g KOH plus titration on used oil.

This means that 4g KOH looks about right for oil with a Tickel Titration of 1.14ml, which is the same as 0.57% FFA. This is pretty good oil and not easy to get.

I have also found that with new oil some of the ethanol can be replaced with methanol, approx 1/3. Allowing for the difference in molecular weight you would use 167ml ethanol and 58ml methanol, total 225ml instead of the usual 250ml ethanol per litre of oil. This ratio is about 25% methanol by volume. This saves a bit a cash.

[This message was edited by neutral on 13 September 2003 at 01:20 AM.]

so how is things going making and running on OCH/Masters Formula?

blend powered (WVO blends)
Jeepn Moggin Jessup

Originally I went straight to experementing with WVO cause converting the car once compared to converting each and ever liter of WVO to bio-D just sounded the logical way to go. Butt..... I dont like the hoaky look of it either.

anyway.. the OCH/Master forumla looks promising and Im proud to say is something I was thinking about too. I really wanted to deacidy the WVO have asked questions about just that with little helpfull answers.

Anywayyyyyyy.... this long winded post is leading to request for help about the below since I skipped diving deep into making Bio-D

quote:

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Originally posted by neutral:
.... I suggest therefore using 2.4g KOH plus titration on used oil....

...This means that 4g KOH looks about right for oil with a Tickel Titration of 1.14ml, which is the same as 0.57% FFA. This is pretty good oil and not easy to get.[This message was edited by neutral n 13 September 2003 at 01:20 AM.]

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Can you Neutral or someone Please give me a lesson off list on how to go about the Tickel titration measurment and the mixing process when using KOH or Naoh to neutralize the FFA's. I understand the net concept; I think, but I'm getting lost in the details of application.

Would be very indebted to anyone who walks me thru this.

Knowing it's a lot to ask,

Jeepn Moggin Jessup
coachgeo@hotmail.com (email and MSN messenger)

blend powered (WVO blends)

[This message was edited by jeepin, moggin Jessup on 06 October 2003 at 10:17 AM.]

Is this of any use to you?
Diff

quote:

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Originally posted by The Diff:
Is THIS of any use to you?
Diff

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Looks like it will be yes... mucho thanx. Ill read up on it.

blend powered (WVO blends)
Jeepn Moggin Jessup

Ok..... THANKS !!!!. From the link above I've see how to deterimine the amount of KOH.

Now how do u mix it? mix into the oil in combination with the ethanol, or KOH first then ethanal later? Heavy agitation like the Dr. Pepper method or???

blend powered (WVO blends)
Jeepn Moggin Jessup

KOH in ethanol, then potassium-ethoxide in the WVO. Then any kind of thorough agitation. IE pump, prop, paint shaker, Dr Pepper. A clean cement mixer would be ideal for this, as would be an old washing machine.
Oil Can Harry's, The Masters Formula is the Cat's Meow!

Diff

[This message was edited by The Diff on 06 October 2003 at 07:58 PM.]

Diff..........

Thanks for the praise,, I am really very happy to bring our working formula to the forum and also the world....

I know that sooner or later someone will try to steal it and say it is theirs, but we know the difference.......

The Masters Formula does indeed work, and puts all the ingredients including the glycerine into a stable solution,,,,,, the drawbacks are, it does increase the viscosity,but with the added Ethanol it makes no difference......

Oil Can Harry

[This message was edited by Oil Can Harry on 06 October 2003 at 11:13 PM.]

quote:

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Originally posted by The Diff:
KOH in ethanol, then potassium-ethoxide in the WVO. Then any kind of thorough agitation....
Diff

[This message was edited by The Diff on 06 October 2003 at 07:58 PM.]

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May I please clarify and see if my brain gets the chemical construction correctly? Are you saying the mix of Ethanol and KOH (potassium-ethoxide)is then introduced into the WVO and ya shake the HELLLLl out of it.

Im curious.... what would happen if you just put the base (KOH) into the WVO w/out the ethanol?

blend powered (WVO blends)
Jeepn Moggin Jessup

Soap

quote:

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Originally posted by The Diff:
Soap

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Soap..... ahhh so I thought. Much thanks.

So deducing from this I see the bennefit of the ethanal premixed with the KOH (potassium-ethoxide) is putting the soap into suspension.

Is there any other benefits of using potassium-ethoxide besides just suspending the soap?

blend powered (WVO blends)
Jeepn Moggin Jessup

Jessup, the formula is designed to do what this forum has been all about since it started - transesterification of the feedstock.

You really need to try and make some biodiesel using the "Dr. Pepper" method as it will be very informative for you. When you shake up the bottle you will notice a few seconds after you started shaking that the bottle will get warmer, the feedstock will go darker - and the mixture will get thinner. That is the transesterification process at work.

Notice I said that the mixture will get thinner - that means that it's viscosity has been reduced. Further, the resulting biodiesel will have a lower gel point than the original feedstock.

In order for this very important reaction to take place, the KOH must be previously disolved in the methanol/ethanol. You cannot add them sepatately to the WVO.

The use of the ethanol instead of methonal is to keep everything in suspension. If you used methanol, it would be likely that separation of the glycerine would occur. This formula is to keep everything together so that all of the material can be used as fuel.

By the way, has anybody done a viscosity test on some of this fuel?

At This site

"Viscosity of the mix after filtering was
13.7 centistokes at 26 C (my normal biodiesel
is between 6 and 8, depending on oil quality,
phase of the moon, etc.) So this stuff is
THICK, but still way thinner than oil at the
same temp. (I haven't measured oil at the
temp used for SVO conversions -- what would
that be, anyway?). Best o luck to Harry,
but I wouldn't use it without preheating.
Come to think of it, I wouldn't use it
anyway because of the KOH....."

Rev Tilly SBC/IBA

quote:

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Originally posted by Terry Syd:
Jessup, the formula is designed to do what this forum has been all about since it started - transesterification of the feedstock.........

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mucho thanks...

I was just wondering cause I have a centrifuge fuel filter that I could spin out some of the soap with so less ethanol would be needed.

Though I dont fully understand it yet I have read the Dr. Pepper method several times.

THANKS AGIAN

blend powered (WVO blends)
Jeepn Moggin Jessup

This comment I made earlier in the thread addresses your question:
"I thought that the purpose of the KOH in this formula, is to neutralize the fatty acids and the purpose of the alcohol is to reduce the viscosity to an acceptable level, the reason for using Ethanol as opposed to meth, as Neutral pointed out, is that the solvent properties of ethanol keep the glycerin from precipitating out. Also, the higher boiling point of ethanol will keep it from boiling out when it gets heated up but returned to the tank."
Hope that helps clarify the funtion of the parts for you.

I just noticed that Tilly posted the same question of viscosity on the general biodiesel section of our forum.....

Please see my reply in thining of wvo, for a complete answer to Tillys, and Provos assertion that my formula is too heavy in viscosity...

Oil Can Harry

Hey Matey you should lighten up, or you'll stroke out...
And Perhaps You are the one who needs to go back to school and learn how to read.

I have simply answered peoples questions by quoting Provo's test results, you did notice the "Hyperlink" and the quotation marks?.
I have said nothing about the quality of the fuel your "Masters Formula" produces but I personally would not put it in my car.
I have also never said anything personal about you although I have comented on some of your quaint ideas.
Maybe you would be better off just continuing to write about all those lowly foreigners who "Without our dollars, they would be back to screwing camels in the desert," and continue to feel smuggly superior to everyone who does not live in the USA.

By the way, as you seem to be telling us what a mathamatical whiz you are, I cannot understand why you were talking about Provo reducing your formula by 9 times when it is immediatly obvious that Provo had reduced it by a factor of 8.33. Provo's test formula is IDENTICAL to the "Masters Formula".
OH that's right, you claim to be using absolute (100%) ethanol and Provo was only using 198 proof (99%) ethanol. You are aware that 2 proof points= 1%, not 2%?
I think you have just had an "Open Mouth Insert Foot" Experience.

I accept your appology yet again.
Rev Tilly SBC/IBA Church of the Straight Facts and Dullards

[This message was edited by Tilly on 08 October 2003 at 08:00 PM.]

Moving on from camels; it would appear to me that the discussion about this process has jumped over an important step.

Has anyone tried measuring the viscosity of the WVO before the process - and then after the process? We know it reduces the viscosity, but by how much?

This would probably go to the heart of the issue, that is, does the process significantly reduce the viscosity of the fuel or not. If so, what is the likely reduction in viscosity for a given feedstock (now that answer will require a bit of emperical research!)

Further, a gel point test on the base WVO and a gel point test on the finished product would also be of interest.

I will gladly do a whole series of tests.

And speaking of camels, how many people know that Australia exports camels to the arabs to improve the gene pool of their herds?

Tilly SBC/IBA

[This message was edited by Tilly on 09 October 2003 at 09:16 AM.]