Seems that alcohol prices track gasoline prices.
Looks like a good investment to me.
$2 to $10 in 4 years, not bad.

OCH,
No idea on bulk price I just had a little and wanted to see what it would do. Too bad after it cooled it turnd into crap, milky and separated.
I don't know if it's my oil, KOH or methanol.

Any further input on my problem can be discussed on (Is 150 deg.F to hot?)

Thanks

The Diff

You said:"Triglycerides are still fatty acids. as such they should be neutralized, whether the oil is virgin or used. Am I right or wrong? I'm relatively new to this so I could be completely mistaken and off base (to be read as "cop out" in case of error)."

Just to get this right triglycerides are not fatty acids but contain them attached to glycerol by the acid end of the molecule, thus the acid in them is not available to do anything so does not need to be neutralized.

But all used cooking oil contains some damaged triglycerides in which the fatty acid has been liberated (FFA). I always have some concern that users of waste oil may be incurring a bit of slow corrosion of the steel components.

So the first thing that happens when you make OCHs fuel is that the FFA get neutralized which can only be a good thing.

The second thing that happens is that a substantial amount of the oil gets converted into esters, good fuel, liberating a substantial amount of glycerine. The ester fuel is a better solvent for ethanol than is the original oil so the excess ethanol goes onto solution. The good solvent properties of ethanol keep the glycerine, soap and glycerides all in solution. Remarkable really. The drop in viscosity is not just due to dilution of the oil but also to the partial conversion, so kero would not be as good and without the caustic the ethanol won't work.

As always. thank you for your clarification.
Diff

With the hope that it will lead others to this thread, I am rating it as 5 stars. Perhaps we are going down a blind path. But, my sense is that this variation on the theme, is too important to let wither on the vine. (How's that for mixing up metaphors?)
In the universe of SVO vs BD, Oil Can Harry's contribution is neither fish nor fowl, but a fascinating hybrid.
If, in brevity is wit, The Master's Formulae is quick, easy and effective.
Can we collectively examine its merits and short comings?
Respectfully...Diff

OCH:

Checked with my local supplier today and they have Ethanol but it has been "denatured" using methanol and someother evil thing to prevent the Tilly's of the world from testing the purity of their bio-diesel chemicals.

The WYMISS tag shows about 20% of the unwanted stuff (meth and others). Would this amount significantly reduce the effectiveness of the "Masters Formula"? We live in an area where Ethanol is produced and can get this witch's brew relatively inexpensively, thus making your blend attractive especially considering the temps up here.

I am already using KOH so this isn't a problem but am having some separation problems using the accepted methods with methanol.

Bill

Tilly, what exactly is a good martini? (I'm a bit of a peasant) Just curious I might try one before or after my Gin & Tonic, I dont mind either way.
PS I'm just of to the pub might have me a pint of Guinness or three.

quote:

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Originally posted by Tilly:
"A good Martini is a concoction of such perfect proportions that you are consumed by its ultimate reality. A slow sip sends you into a nirvana of slippery, viscous, chilling, specialness. At times it is reminiscent of the best summer you ever had as a child, and on other occassions it validates your adulthood like nothing else can."

Rev Tilly Church of the Juniper berry

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GREAT STUFF!!!!!!!1

Keep it comming.

new thought .. say one took a derivative of the formula and tweaked it to where the glycern "wants" to fall out/seperate then.. SPIN the concoction in a cyclonic fuel filter to force the glycering out? hmmmmm....

Kugel powered (WVO/Gas blend)
Jeepn Moggin Jessup

Moderator pirate4x4.com
Mercedes Talk
Unimogs and other Benzo's

You can mix a bit of methanol with the ethanol and still get good OCH fuel. The amount you can mix will probably depend on the FFA.

As far as using a centrifuge goes the problem is that it only does things faster that were happening anyway. If one thing is soluble in another a centrifuge can't separate them.

Well I have read just about everything about this topics and I'll say that my brain hurts. This sounds really interesting and something I would like to try. Number one would be sourcing the chemicals. Where would you get KOH and Ethanol in the Ottawa ( Canada ) area ? Lye and methanol were easy enough for me to come upon, but I did not like making the traditional bio-d. That's why I went with using WVO. This certainly sounds like it will weather a bit better in the cold than WVO. I was thinking if I could make this stuff, then I could use it in the same tank I have for WVO already. Then it could be heated for winter use too !

Just remember that ethanol boils at around 81deg C.
My WVO system delivers oil to the injecters at 82+ C.
Maybe your system has more temperature control than mine. I'm sure that I can modify my fuel delivery systems.
I am very pleased with Harry's Formula, but I live in sunny, south Florida. I just put it in my main tank, and have had no problems cold starting.
Keep us posted!

Diff

Weasel:

My supplier here in Ottawa is BSC Inc. on Cyrville Rd. Checked with them last week on their ethanol but it seems that they use methanol to "denature" the stuff. Still don't know what effect that will have but will be trying a batch later on.

Drummonds Gas on Merivale road occsionally has, what they say is 100% Ethanol at a seperate pump for the piston head crowd. Again I have no idea as to it's purity. Seems that our regulatory bodies are pre-occupied with the possible ingestion of this stuff thus it all has to be denatured.

Lets hope that it gets easier to acquire once the ethanol plant in Cornwall gets up and running.

Hope this helps.

Bill

Perhaps this is premature.

Cyclotrol, Carson City Nevada sells Zeolyte crystals in two pound bags for a resonable price. These same products are available worldwide, from different manufacture/mining operations.
The concept is that they adsorb the water from alcohol. Then one heats them up to drive off the water and reuses them ad infinitum, or until one dies.
I have ordered, but not yet received, some of these. I will post my observations.

Diff

[This message was edited by The Diff on 10 September 2003 at 09:22 AM.]

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Diff:
Just remember that ethanol boils at around 81deg C.
My WVO system delivers oil to the injecters at 82+ C.
Maybe your system has more temperature control than mine. I'm sure that I can modify my fuel delivery systems.
SNIP
Diff

---

So if your fuel tank is not heated to more than 75'C and you have a fuel pump at the tank, so the WVO system is under pressure from that point, it will not boil at that temperature because the system is not at atmospheric pressure.
The IP lines to the injectors are at MUCH higher pressure.

40 000 KM in a '90 Mazda 2 litre diesel on SVO with biodiesel start/purge.

Rev Tilly SBC/IBA Church of the Holy EtOH

Thank you Bill ! What is the current cost and do you have a line on the KOH ??

BTW, my fiancee works in Manotick. One of these days if I ever have to get up there ( I am in Renfrew ) we should hook up for a coffee and talk about this stuff. Not many of us around here with alternate fuels in their VW's !!

Now that I think about it, does it really matter whether you use NaOH or KOH ?? NaOH is easier for me to get, I just have to get the ethanol and mix it accordingly ...

I forgot to ask, but the recipe in question, is it for SVO or WVO ? ( meaning how much extra KOH would you need for WVO reaction )

Weasel:

Just paid $65.00 for 20 Kg of KOH flakes at above mentioned supplier. Their meth is currently $169.99 for a 45 gal drum (plus drum deposit $25.00). I priced their de-natured ethanol but find the price prohibitive (about $5.00/gal...and you can't even mix it with Dr. Pepper!!!) for use with the "Master's Formula". Going to check with Drummonds and McEwans about getting their ethanol later on this week.

From what I have discovered the only difference between SVO and WVO is the amount of lye/potash used in the process. Do a search on titrations. Clearly a must until you are sure of your WVO supplier. Even then I sometimes get it wrong as in last week.

Email me before coming down and I'll try and time a new batch for when your here. I don't drive a VW...just gen-sets, furnaces and GM V8 diesels currently all on bio (Dr. Pepper variety).

Bill

[This message was edited by Bill McD on 10 September 2003 at 02:39 PM.]

I thank you for the invite and will make a point of it.

Those prices seem to be reasonable, considering you are really paying for your fuel in advance. 45 gallons of eth is enough for about a dozen tanks of fuel. Ultimately you get better fuel for half the price. That's hard to beat. Drop me a line or post here ( I will be monitoring this thread as it does have lots of potential ) on the prices at Drummonds and McEwans. Guess all I really need now is a scale.

Does anyone know at what point this stuff gels ?? Just wondering about its use in the winter ...

Weasel:

Generally speaking, if you are using canola based feedstock, the stuff normally starts to fog-up around 4C (cloud point) and gets rather stiff at -4C (gel point). Am experimenting with various solvents (meth, eth, etc), additives (stanadyne, artic gel, etc) and dino fuels (#2, #1, kerosine) to make this stuff usable in February (or for that matter November).

Will keep you posted.

Bill