Ok, here is the new thread, on KoH and Ethanol..
Pretty much the same rules apply as regular Methanol, use 200 proof denatured Ethanol, as anything less will have water, and that will screw up your mixture, otherwise just heat to 55C, agitate well and thats it, you are finished,, filter and pour it into your tank and off you go...

For those just seeing the formula for the first time it is..

1 liter of oil
250 ml of Ethanol
4 grams of KoH

Oil Can Harry

Do you know if your product gels at a higher temperature than normal bio-diesel?

Edmrx7......I think you must be mistaken,, gelling would not occur at high temperature....
So I'll figure that you meant lower temp, and the answer is that it will go lower before gelling because it has more alcohol than the standard mix with methanol.....

However, that does not mean that the Ethanol mixture is not thicker (lower viscosity) as it is.......

Oil Can Harry

OCH,
just talked with a petoreum supplier,is the type of ethanol important? What he has is $6.50 a gallon in 55's, way too much.

Squesel........

Yeah, thats way to much tell him, to tie a drum to himself, and jump into the nearest backyard burner..... The Ethanol you want is the lowest purity grade,denatured and is 200 proof and anhydrous......

Also you cannot be buying little containers, the least that you will want is 55 gallon drum, or they will stick it to you.....

I thought with the newest alcohol subsidies, that Ethanol was going to get cheaper...?? or was that by the trainload,, at any rate to be viable at all you cannot be paying more than $3.00 a gallon, or you might just as well be buying Methanol and producing the standard bio...

Oil Can Harry

Hi OCH,
just a query as to whether this also works with NaOH as the catalyst? (I am being lazy as I have good quantities of this for making BD...)

Here in Brisbane Aus this may be a good summer blend as the temperatures will keep it thin.

Is the vehicle you are running the Gold in a direct or indirect engine?

Do any of the Australian BD'ers know of any cost effective Ethanol suppliers?

Thanks

Paul R

Well Paul, thats a good question, and one that I don't have the answer for as all I have ever used was KoH..... For me in the begining KoH and Methanol was the ticket as I wanted the glycerine to remain liquid, so KoH is what I used......

I do know that generally speaking the reactions require more KoH than NaOH, so I would suspect that NaOH would work also and just require less..

However this I have not tried, so am unable to give you any solid information, but it would be a simple matter to start with 1 gram per liter, and work up untill the oil cracks......

And my vehicle has an indirect injection

Oil Can Harry

Paul, as I indicated in the previous thread a fellow I know accidently made up a batch with ethanol that would not separate. He uses NaOH for his process. The fellow decided to just finish off the ethanol he bought and run the unseparated biodiesel through his trucks - about 8,000 litres.

As far as OCH's master formula - I should stick my neck out here and say that I think is far from the be all and end all of the unseparated biodiesel process. It works for OCH with his feedstock, in his vehicle and in his weather conditions.

I note from the formula that it only uses 4gm KOH. That would normally not be enough KOH to properly esterfy unused oil, let alone some oil with FFA floating around in it.

This process needs more fine tuning. I would expect that OCH's fuel would be of lower viscosity if there was more transesterification done on the feedstock.

We need to check the viscosity of OCH's formula against a properly titrated and chemically correct batch of unseparated biodiesel. It could be that we will eventually find that a new formula is arrived at for making unseparated ethanol based biodiesel.

Perhaps the formula will stipulate something like 3grams NaOH (or KOH eqivalent) plus the titrated amount. In other words, to try and get full esterification but without excessive left over catalyst.

At this point we need more testing and viscosity tests would be a good starting point.

OCH,
What kind of vehicle and engine is it. Just curious.
Thanks

a martini here in Paradise.

I noticed on another heading that OCH's biodiesel has a substantially higher viscosity than normal biodiesel.

As all the by-product/glycerine is still in this fuel, the thought crossed my mind as to how the viscosity of fuel made from the Master Formula compares to fuel made from just mixing 200ml ethanol with 1 litre of WVO.
Maybe you could even omit the KOH and the EtOH and use 200ml kerosine instead.

Just a thought.

If anyone would like to send me 200 litres of 100% ethanol I would be happy to run a few Dr Pepper batches to check it out.

Really Rev Tilly Church of the sweaty Hand Shake

Let's see, a few Dr. Pepper Batches from 200litres of 100% ethanol. That leaves how muuch ethtanol, letts cee, mmaybde in mormnin I ckeck it ouwt.

"A good Martini is a concoction of such perfect proportions that you are consumed by its ultimate reality. A slow sip sends you into a nirvana of slippery, viscous, chilling, specialness. At times it is reminiscent of the best summer you ever had as a child, and on other occassions it validates your adulthood like nothing else can."

Rev Tilly Church of the Juniper berry

Tilly........

Your idea of either omiting the KoH or the Etanonl and replacing with possible kerosine is actually a very good one and one I'll try it here this weekend,, I just had not thought in that direction.......

But of course the preservation of Ethanol, more suitably used in other libations, cannot be overlooked either, espescially considering your most generous offer of sending you a drum of 200 proof Ethanol to do a couple of 1 liter tests...

that the purpose of the KOH in this formula, was to neutralize the fatty acids and the purpose of the alcohol is to reduce the viscosity to an acceptable level, the reason for using Ethanol as opposed to meth, as Neutral pointed out, is that the solvent properties of ethanol keep the glycerin from precipitating out. Also, the higher boiling point of ethanol will keep it from boiling out when it gets heated up but reurned to the tank.
Diff

Diff,, you are of course right, Ethanol is a superior solvent and will keep things in suspension...

However Tilly does raise a valid point, and that is that we should continue to experiment, trying other compounds,, my feeling is that the ethanol KoH is superior and does work well, but I also would like to try the NaOH and Ethanol, and also kerosine and raw oil.....

When I have the sample bottles in front of me to examine, it will be easy to say what works and what is crap, but untill then I won't know, and remeber with this formula we are not really cracking the oil but mearly putting everything in suspension, so it is possible that NAOH would do the same as KoH just less of it........

Oil Can Harry

Lest we forget, Kerosene is a Petroleum product and also has all those nasty emissions that dino has. If I remember correctly Josh's book "From the Fryer to the Fuel Tank" covers using a WVO/Kerosene blend. Haven't looked at it lately, but I think it mentioned it shouldn't be used for more than a short-term fuel.
If you were to use new VO, would you need any KOH or NaOH at all, since you are not using the base properties to crack the triglyceride molecule and there are no FFAs to neutralize? Basically you would be using ethanol to reduce the viscosity of the oil, and burning a blend of the two instead of an ethyl ester.
I'm relatively new to this so I could be completely mistaken and off base (to be read as "cop out" in case of error).

[This message was edited by BPFSU on 28 August 2003 at 07:06 PM.]

[This message was edited by BPFSU on 28 August 2003 at 07:10 PM.]

That's OK, Einstein was once new to math.

Triglycerides are still fatty acids. as such they should be neutralized, whether the oil is virgin or used. Am I right or wrong? I'm relatively new to this so I could be completely mistaken and off base (to be read as "cop out" in case of error).

By the way, I got three quotes (one from brentag) today on 200 proof anhydrous ethanol, they all ranged from $5 to $5.5 per gallon, 440 gallon minimum.

Oil Can, I am not (nor have I ever) suggesting that we should not experiment. I just want to underscore what is the underlying elegance of your concoction. By all means, we should experiment. I used to tell my staff "I don't care what you do today, as long as its different than yesterday."

I wonder how long it will be before the National Biodiesel Board appropriates your creation as their own, steal the name Master Blend, lobby congress for the rights to create national standards, then create standards that can only be met by virgin soybean oil. It would be deja-vu all over again, eh?

Diff

just did a test on the masters blend with isopropyl 99% it turnd out better than my regular bio.
Will iso. work instead of ethanol? What do I look for to see if it worked like your ethanol blend?

It looks like we have two methods developing here. One is to simply thin the base oil, the other is to transesterfy.

My interest is in the esterification process as it seems to hold the most promise to reducing viscosity. You all may recall that when the feedstock goes through the esterification process the colour and viscosity changes dramatically.

If the ethanol can keep the glycerine in the mix fully suspended and thinned out, then this should result in a fuel that is thinner than just oil and ethanol mixed.

As far as using NaOH, yes it works, but I would offer a caveat as to allowing the ethanol to evaporate. Most of us have seen what happens if high fat feedstock and NaOH methoxide combine - the glycerine goes hard. If you were using good quality vegetable oil, then probably this would not be a problem, but with the average fish and chip shop oil, it could be a disaster to allow the ethanol to evaporate out of the fuel. Especially in your fuel tank. This can be tested by making up an NaOH batch and letting the ethanol evaporate.

As this is all a new area, I would prefer using KOH just in case.

In regards to the excess ethanol, OCH's formula gives about 9% excess ethanol in the fuel to suspend the glycerine. This fits in well with some governments mandating 10% ethanol in the petrol and diesel. In fact, 10% was what was used in the Diesohol here in Oz.

That diesohol had to use an emulsifier to keep the ethanol in suspension. In this case there is no need for an emulsifier.

When I first read about this process, I was appalled at the concept. Then again, the first time I heard about using fish and chip shop grease in a diesel I had an even more negative reaction. This is a new concept, it needs to be developed as far as it can be taken to see where, or if, it can be a success - this is the leading edge folks, if you don't know what is gonna happen next, then welcome to the edge.

[This message was edited by Terry Syd on 28 August 2003 at 10:40 PM.]

Diff, and Taz........ first taz, thats great that you were able to put the oil into solution with Isopropal alcohol, it should have a consistant golden color to it, with no separation at least thats what I get using waste soy oil from the local shops,, how is 99%Isopropal alcohol for price in bulk..?? And my vehicle is a 1982 datsun diesel SD22 with indirect injection

Diff,, Thanks for the words, I did not think bad thoughts about you, and I do feel that this mix of mine has a place in our world,, perhaps it will be like butane which is sold in the south and propane which is sold in the north as far as viscosity is concerned......

On your alcohol search,, are you telling them that you need a certain purity,, as what you really want is an industrial grade and not a pedigre........ Have you tried Archer Daniels Midland...?? They are probably the Largest producers of Ethanol from corn in the US......

Oil Can Harry