That's the question.
We have 275 gallons siiting out at the shop.
Is there a chemical or mechanical procedure anyone knows of?

TIA
Brian

I have no direct experience with crude oil. All I know is what I have read or people have told me.

A lot of the gums in crude oil will settle out if left undisturbed.

Most of the gums that are left in the oil after settling will attach to the glycerol during the BD reaction.

Hopefully, Fuzznag or others with more experience and direct knowledge will give you their opinion.

I don't have much experience degumming oil. I do have some experience not degumming crude oil.
One way to degum oil is to add 3% water, heat the oil, mix with a high shear mixer then settle or centrifuge. Another process involves adding some type of acid and then centrifuging.
It is my opinion, and experience so far, that oil does not need to be degummed to make biodiesel. I could be wrong.
Is there a "gum test" for biodiesel?

There are two types of "gums" or phospholipids. One type is hydrateable which are the ones tht fuelfarmer describes can be "washed out" using a water wash, the other type of gums are the non hydratables, these need to be acidulated to make them hydrateable which as fuelfarmer suggest involves an acid wash step.

The problem with using "crude" oil is basicaly the source of the oil. If the beans have been cold pressed then typially the gums content is pretty low, however if the beans are from a commercial plant then there may well be a higher level.

To determine the level of "gums" in vegetable oil there is a procedure called a Phosphorus test.

Do you need to degum "crude" oil, in my opinion and experience I would say yes if you are trying to make high quality ASTM or EN standard fuel and certainly for any larger commercial producers. However if you are producing fuel on a homebrew basis you may well be OK using crude oil, especially if it is cold pressed. The main issues I have seen with undegummed oils is typically difficulty in washing due to emulsion formation and the like. Lecithin is a phospholipid removed when degumming soybean oil and Lecithin is an excellent Emulsifier used in the food industry.

hmm. Ok Thanks for all of that. I'll need to ask more info from where it came from.

It's in a full tote and I know its been sitting there undisturbed all this dry hot summer.

Tomorow, I'll ask about it and get a liter off the top and do a test batch.

Brian
It was free, so it isnt that big of a deal if I cant make it work.

quote:

Originally posted by Fuzznag:
To determine the level of "gums" in vegetable oil there is a procedure called a Phosphorus test.

Can you describe this testing procedure? Is there a crude approximation of this test that is within reach of the small scale producer?

To degum: sorry for using metric but mix about 2-300ml of battery acid in 30 litres of water. Add this mixture to 1000 litres of oil. Stir with heating if possible. Leave to settle overnight. Gums will drop to the bottom.

funnyfidel,
Your reply sorta matches fuelfarmer's, only with battery acid. Would that be the electrolite frome the motorcycle shop? Wich acid is that, exactly?

These are the answers I like to hear-- when 2 or more reputable people say what works, I'm apt to have faith.
I'll still wait to hear more chime in before I commit to anything.

Should I expect the oil to be nice and golden on top of the gum when seetled?
Thanks

quote:
Originally posted by Fuzznag:
To determine the level of "gums" in vegetable oil there is a procedure called a Phosphorus test.

I too, would like to know about this test.

I'll look into the type of phospholipids and how it was produced today when I see the supplier.

Thanks a million,
Brian

oops, lost part of the question when I hit "Bolt Text";

How much heat?
How long to shear mix?

Brian

quote:

Wich acid is that, exactly?

Sulphuric

quote:

[b]Should I expect the oil to be nice and golden on top of the gum when seetled?

I have never noticed much of a change from degummed oil compared to gummed oil. You should however get a sediment.
Heat is not vital, but it helps. If the oil has been out in the sun then that should be okay. High shear mixing is not necessary, circulating with a gear pump should be fine.
Forget all the tests, if you do not see a thick milky sediment after overnight settlement it is either because the oil has already been degummed or you have not added enough water/acid. PS You need water and acid as there are two types of gums. It aint rocket science.

I too, would like to know about this test.

I'll look into the type of phospholipids and how it was produced today when I see the supplier.

Thanks a million,
Brian[/QUOTE]

I went back and looked at some info that I have. Simple water degumming. Heat oil to 70-90 C. Add 1-2% soft water. Mildly agitate 15 to 30 min. Centrifuge.
Settling should work if you have the time.

http://www.aocs.org/archives/analysis/pdfs/logan_andrew.pdf

quote:

Originally posted by funnyfidel:
PS You need water and acid as there are two types of gums. It aint rocket science.

Is the acid neutralized in the reaction?

A while back I took 1/2 gallon of crude soybean oil and tried water degumming. I did get some white stuff to settle. Not sure if the stuff was gum or an emulsion.

The jar is tilted toward the camera. Oil over water.White stuff floating on water.

Ok, This morning, I got to work and microwaved 1 liter of the stuff for 1.5 minutes, burped every 30 seconds.
Id say it was close to 100*F. Added just a tsp. of sulfuric acid and shook it good.

It looked like oj, and after a couple hours, it looked like orange soda pop with the gum and water layers clearly seperated. Just like the above picture.

Rightout of the tote;


just aggitated;


5 hours later;


Ha!

Now what....
Water wash like a 1 liter batch, or just do the Dr. pepper thing from here?

I want to do something tonight.
I'll be near the forum. Going thru my notes.
Brian
Titrate test, or just go 5g NaOh?

WHOAH!!!!

I meant to say I added the acid solution with 30ml water....ad shook it.
those pictures ar terrible.

Right now, it looks like fuelfarmer's pic.

Brian

I'd like to thank all of you for your time and insight.

I went a head and gave the oil (degummed?)
one waterwash and it was clear.

I then boiled the water out till it was calm and clear.

The Dr. Pepper test batch is going as smooth as any WVO test.

I did spill some of the liter while the methoxide was about ready to add.
I went ahead anyway. Soap, soap/gum? you bet. But I think it still seperated and is coming out in the wash.

It's getting clear, now on its 5th wash, though it's taking a while to get the soap layer to situate itself.

At least I feel better about this supply. There could be hope. I'll know tomorow.
Here's the 5th wash , as Ive typed this, it is now quite clear water- maybe 2 more washes.

Thank you all again,
Brian

For those who asked earlier I don't think the phosphorus test is the kind of thing that a homebrewer can easily do. I have never actually done the test myself but I have had plenty done by on site laboratories at edible oil refineries I have been involved with. As far as I remember the test involves taking the oil and making an ash in the presence of zinc oxide and then determination of the phosphorus content. There is then a link between the amount of phosphorus and the amount of phospholipids (gums).

There is an official AOCS method for this and I think it is number 19-55 but there is also a method that uses Atomic Absorbtion Spectrscopy (I assume all homebrewers have access to this sort of lab equipment in their garden shed, LOL)

quote:

Originally posted by producer:

Is the acid neutralized in the reaction?

I don't know. I do know that you need acid and water as there are two types of gum; one that is hydratable with water and one that precipitates with acid. You're not adding a hell of a lot of acid and it will separate out from the oil in the gum precipitate. The gum is pretty good in animal feed BTW. mmmmmm yummy!

Just for fun I took some new store bought canola oil and add some water. Heated the mix to 180F and shook the jar for a few minuets. After cooling, the water and oil was milky looking but you could easily see the dividing line . I reheated to around 120F and when the mix cooled the water was clear with small white globs floating between the oil and water. Not as much white goo as with crude oil but still some goo. Don't know what to make of the little experiment, but it was entertaining