I read alot of threads on BD's ending up with bottles, barrels, and drums of soap.

I had previously started a thread on using ONLY 3.5 grams NaOH as a base, then adding titration amounts to that base.

I have since fine tuned and now use a 4.0 gram base, with a very CLEAN and ACCURATE titration to obtain my final NaOH addition.

I have been warned, lectured, and told that you HAVE to use at LEAST 5-7 grams of NaOH to obtain high quality BD.
Have been given quotes by old school BD'ers, and chemist's on stochiometric indexs, conversion ratios etc, etc.

My point being this:

If you are frustrated with making BD because you continually make soap,...quit using all that D#@* NaOH. Thats why you are wasting WVO and producing soap, jelly, gloop,...whatever.

Start at the basics, 1L Dr. Pepper batches each and EVERY time prior to full scale production.
Start with a 3.5 or 4.0 Gram base, do CAREFUL and CLEAN titrations (I use turmeric, always have).
3/27 the results of THAT 1L and IF you obtain a precipitate, then increase your NaOH by 1/2 of a gram, and reprocess that 1L.

You will learn more about making BD from 1L batches then any other possible method.

Rushing in to become a BD retailer overnight will not ONLY frustrate you, but wastes alot of WVO.

After a BUNCH of various sized batches, I have yet to make a "bad batch", had a couple 1L's that had to be fine tuned, but when you dump 50 gal. of oil in your processor after batching 1L of that same oil, you will be confident and pleased with your results.

Mull: I agree with you that making a 1L test batch before each full batch will make most of the pressure go away, and it's a good way to fine tune your skills, at least until you know what you're doing. That's the way I plan to do it.

But the 5 gram NaOH base the old members recommend (I've never seen anybody recommending a 7g. NaOH base) is based o a lot of experience, besides the knowledge of chemistry some members have.
Have you ever run a sample of your fuel through a GC? For what I read, the 3/27 test is a good indicative of your conversion, but it's in no way accurate, or a measure of your fuel's final quality.
I may be wrong (wouldn't e a surprise), but that's the way I understand it. Many members here have come with that number after a lot of work, and have GC'd their fuels, and made sure the results were what they hoped for. Maybe if you're having a good reaction with a 4 g. base is because you are titrating too high.

the point that you dont seem to be addressing is that people are not using new oil and one cannot simply do dr.pepper batches over and over until they believe they hve the proper amount of catalyst. if that were the method everyone used then why even bother titrating. and you may want to use phenolphthelein and fresh titrant if you want more accurate results with less soap. however, if you have a high ffa content you will have a high amount of soap regardless unless you use a two-step process.

berny.

Don't know what a GC is, or how I'd go about doing one. Would appreciate any input on that idea.

I understand what you're saying about experiance, and there is NO better teacher.

However, all WVO's are not the same, even from the same resturant. I have read alot of these threads where newbies are making soap, the ONLY way to make soap is use "wet" oil, too much NaOH, or a combo of both. I know, I also (purposefully with oil, h2O, and lye) make bar soap.

Dry oil and too little NaOH will not make soap, it may leave too many non-converted mono-, di-, and triglycerides; but that is an easy fix compared to trying to reprocess soap.

When I was new to this I would have much preferred erring to the precipitate side of the 3/27 as to the soap side....but that's me.

Fortunately I have had a great amount of success. I don't believe that would be possible if my titrations were not accurate.
It probably helps that I have a B.S. in Biology, and I have a ready access to various sizes of syringes, being that I work in the medical field.

dude?

Did you read the post prior to responding??

no mull it seems that bernyjb replied at the same time

quote:

However, all WVO's are not the same, even from the same resturant. I have read alot of these threads where newbies are making soap, the ONLY way to make soap is use "wet" oil, too much NaOH, or a combo of both. I know, I also (purposefully with oil, h2O, and lye) make bar soap.

which is why we titrate

quote:

Dry oil and too little NaOH will not make soap, it may leave too many non-converted mono-, di-, and triglycerides; but that is an easy fix compared to trying to reprocess soap.

When I was new to this I would have much preferred erring to the precipitate side of the 3/27 as to the soap side....but that's me.

who reprocesses soap? and i think most people would rather have fully converted fuel with soap to wash out then running fuel with unconverted oil in it gumming up their engine or clogging their filters.

quote:

Fortunately I have had a great amount of success. I don't believe that would be possible if my titrations were not accurate.
It probably helps that I have a B.S. in Biology, and I have a ready access to various sizes of syringes, being that I work in the medical field.

please tell me what having a b.s. in biology does for your ability to make b/d.
i have a b.s. in environmental science and am also dual lisenced by florida to operate and manage drinking water and wastewater treatment facilities. and i am in a lab every day doing titrations for chlorine residuals, hardness, alkalinty and a miriad of other tests. but that is no endorsement for homebrewing b/d. and i don't understand how someone with a degree in biology doesn't know what a gas chromatography testing device is.

dude,

I am not going to get into a pissing contest over this.

Please read the original post again. It appears as though you either misunderstood what I wrote, or flat out do not understand what I wrote.

As far as having studied anything in the fields of chemistry, environmental science, biology, or any other science,.... you don't feel that having worked daily in these fields prepares you any better then someone who has NO experiance doing titrations or mixing chemicals (dangerous or otherwise???)

Shame, what a waste of an education.

As far as gumming up engines...re-read the original post...ANY education should allow you to comprehend the statement that "if you get a precipitate, you add X amount of NaOH and reprocess" THAT 1L, prior to processing a large batch.

My entire impetus for beginning this thread was not to start an argument with you or anyone else for that matter, but to help new BD'ers understand that this site, nor ANY others is a lesson plan for making BD. The information here and anywhere else on the web is merely a STARTING point for making BD.

There is no exact "template", but rather based on WVO gathered, hardness of local H2O, purity of ingredients, and personal ability....BD is an education in experimentation and ones ability to "tweek" the various ingredients and processes involved to obtain a quality finished product.

In addition, although I do not know what a GC is, I do believe that somewhere along the line I have been introduced to gas chromotography, thank you for clarifing that point.

I think that anyone that has gotten comfortable with homebrewing BD, that is, can get desirable and predictable results every time, would understand exactly what your saying, I however disagree with the base amount. For me its 5 NaOH and 7 KOH.
If someone doing research into homebrewing BD inquires, I always recommend the above, and teach it at my seminars as well.
So in the end my advice, start as a noob with whats known, then tweek and settle in from there.
There are more variables to making excess soap than base Catalyst amounts; equipment, handling practices, process practices etc.
Rick H..

quote:

Start with a 3.5 or 4.0 Gram base, do CAREFUL and CLEAN titrations (I use turmeric, always have).
3/27 the results of THAT 1L and IF you obtain a precipitate, then increase your NaOH by 1/2 of a gram, and reprocess that 1L.

bad advice

quote:

start as a noob with whats known, then tweek and settle in from there.
There is more variables to making excess soap than base Catalyst amounts; equipment, handling practices, process practices etc.

goooooood advice.
by the way i think you may have got some on your leg

equipment, handling practices, process practices etc.
Rick H..[/QUOTE]

Couldn't agree more there.

mull,
you're alright in my book. lets go have a beer