quote:

And considering our keen sense of smell it is also highly likely the homebrewer, whether trying to or not will learn the smell of methanol. If by chance this is the case, then obviously it still needs to be demethed.

I agree that nobody should intentionally smell methanol but every home-brewer knows what methanol smells like. If you smell it, do something about it. Leave the area and ventilate the workspace if required. Exposure to methanol odors will make your nose fail to smell it after a short while. Don't stay in the workspace and wait for the odor to leave. It's likely the methanol vapor is still present but you just can't detect it by smell.

Ken

quote:

Is nitric acid a good idea?

NO.
There are quite a few explosives based on nitric acid. nitroglycerine and TNT come to mind.

So, to get back to fabricator's original question which I am interested in also. Is there no simple yet effective test to determine if there is methanol present in biodiesel?

I use a variation of GL's 1 day process and the methanol removal is always a big question mark for me. I've ran the methanol removal process anywhere from 3 to 23 hours but never really know for sure at what point it is actually all gone.

Any thoughts?

quote:

never really know for sure at what point it is actually all gone.

Well, its never all gone. Like any mixture, removal of one component follows a Bell Curve that approached 0, but never will reach a pure mixture again. Its all about functionally gone, in which case you have to define what the lower limit is that you consider functionally gone...1000ppm? 100ppm? 10ppm? 1ppm?

I base it on soap content. Being as methanol dissolves soap and BD doesn't to any significant amount, AFAIK, when the methanol content is low enough that the soap content approaches 200-250ppm, the methanol and soap are low enough for me to use. Since the soap content will never reach 0ppm, the methanol content won't either.

Hey Guys,

I think there is a cheap and effective way to check for methanol content - I just need to determine how accurate it can be -- Down to 0.1% is my goal.

May be able to produce a test kit of somekind for other brewers.

GCG

If you need a beta tester that could screw up a box of rocks you know who to call.

Anyone got their oily hands on one of these yet?

i-SPEC™ Q-100

quote:

Paradigm’s i-SPEC™ Q-100 biodiesel handheld analyzer, the Company’s first product, will enable users to test in the field for total glycerin (in accordance ASTM 6751 specification limits prior to blending), methanol, and acid number as well as measure diesel/biodiesel blend percentages

quote:

Originally posted by paulb3:
Anyone got their oily hands on one of these yet?

i-SPEC™ Q-100

quote:

Paradigm’s i-SPEC™ Q-100 biodiesel handheld analyzer, the Company’s first product, will enable users to test in the field for total glycerin (in accordance ASTM 6751 specification limits prior to blending), methanol, and acid number as well as measure diesel/biodiesel blend percentages

It says it will only measure total Glycerin on B6 to B20. Other than that it looks a neat tool. Probably out of my price range though!

Ryan P.,
I see what you're saying about soap content and the direct relation to methanol content and I can buy into that.

So how about this question: Titrating for soap is the way to be accurate but does anyone know approximately how much soap content the naked eye can detect in the water after a simple "shake'em up test"?

Thanks,

quote:

Originally posted by bmcgrew:
So how about this question: Titrating for soap is the way to be accurate but does anyone know approximately how much soap content the naked eye can detect in the water after a simple "shake'em up test"?

I've tested biodiesel that had just over 500 ppm soap and gave clear water in the "shake'em" test, but the biodiesel was cloudy. It seems when it's at about 100 ppm or so the biodiesel remains clear and will not turn cloudy when mixed with water. This is just my personal observation with my biodiesel and my water supply. Your results may be completely different.

Ken

quote:

Originally posted by Bunk:

quote:

Originally posted by bmcgrew:
So how about this question: Titrating for soap is the way to be accurate but does anyone know approximately how much soap content the naked eye can detect in the water after a simple "shake'em up test"?

I've tested biodiesel that had just over 500 ppm soap and gave clear water in the "shake'em" test, but the biodiesel was cloudy. It seems when it's at about 100 ppm or so the biodiesel remains clear and will not turn cloudy when mixed with water. This is just my personal observation with my biodiesel and my water supply. Your results may be completely different.

Ken

There are a number of things that would cause the biodiesel to go cloudy in a simple shakemup. Methanol is one of them, but so are mono and diglycerides or even FFA. I would use distilled water.

I have been experimenting with an inexpensive breathalyzer from ebay. Under moderately controlled conditions, it seems not very sensitive to methanol, perhaps partly due to the sampling method. You're supposed to blow at it, I wave it around over the open bung of the meth barrel and the open barrel of raw biodiesel.

So, unless I find a better way to sample, they are last ditch emergency level detectors so far as I can tell with my single sample.

HTH,

troy

quote:

Originally posted by troy:
I have been experimenting with an inexpensive breathalyzer from ebay. Under moderately controlled conditions, it seems not very sensitive to methanol, perhaps partly due to the sampling method. You're supposed to blow at it, I wave it around over the open bung of the meth barrel and the open barrel of raw biodiesel.

So, unless I find a better way to sample, they are last ditch emergency level detectors so far as I can tell with my single sample.

HTH,

troy

Here's an I dea.

I have no clue that it would work.

Place a sample of bio-d in question in a small vial that can be squeezed in your hand. Fill it to only half way keeping half for air space. Take lid of said vial and make a hole just big enough to place a 1/4" od hose in it and seal the outter rim. Make sure when the sides of the vial are squeezed, no liquid comes out. Place hose in front of your breathalayzer and squeeze it! Maybe a shake of the sample first to release some of the methanol fumes.

Or, perhaps, heat the sample above the vapor point of methanol then place tube in front of anaylzer and squeeze..................

Will it work? I dunno. I am on my second Vodka in Green tea so while I am safe from recent exposure.... my SWAG may be way off.

HTH

Yup, that's my idea for improved sampling. Put a sample of raw bio, or presumed de-meth'd byproduct in a small container with two outlets, spaced as far apart as possible, maybe with some sort of "maze" baffling to maximize contact of the air with the sample. Both outlets will have some 1/4" flex tubing attached.

I will blow on the the one and the "outgoing" outlet will aim at the sampling port on the breathalyzer. With shipping and everything, it was only around twenty bucks. The sampling container should expose a lot of surface area of bio or whatever, sort of like a petri dish to maximize sensitivity. I suspect we could get a 4-10x improved sensitivity by S.W.A.G. using this sampling method.

If somebody else wants to do that experiment and win all the fame, fortune and glory, go right ahead. I'm working 50 hrs/wk at work and just poured the cement for my new 30x70 superinsulated shop. Framing to commence immediately. Needless to say, I am somewhat busy at the moment...

Finest regards,

troy

Maybe put it in a test tube with a 2 hole stopper, or make a similar device. Insert one tube all the way to the bottom of the test tube. (Blow into this one.) Second tube from stopper to breathalizer. Take a deep breath, blow slowly. Warm air bubbles will pick up methanol & take it to breathalizer.

Is it simple? Yes.

Will it work? Maybe.

"The problem with making something idiot proof is that as soon as you do, some fool will invent a better idiot." L. Long.

I guess it depends on how many drinks you have ingested prior to doing the test. :-0

Maybe have a non drinker do the blowing.

I do industrial hygiene sampling and Troy's idea got me to thinking. There is a fairly inexpensive test instrument called a Drager pump. It uses chemical specific test tubes and you manually squeeze the pump a set number of times (depending tube instruction). This will give you PPM / known volume of air.

They have a tube that reads methanol from 5-5,000ppm. What I don't know, other than an indication of methanol present in air, is how could one extrapolate a ppm reading in the head-space into methanol concentration in the BD. Also, to liberate the methanol, I'm assuming the temp would have to be above 148F?

I would think that BD samples with known concentrations would need to be used as standards for initial tests. Anyone smarter than me know how this could be done mathematically?

OK how bout this:

Add Calcium Hydride to a sample to bind the water, then weigh, boil, weigh.

Troy,

Have you read the post by cntsnap?

He has been using a Breath Analyzer to do the same thing and has a rough approximation idea...
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/44410893...271014062#2271014062

GCG

quote:

Originally posted by Ryan P.:

quote:

Remember if you can smell methanol then you have already passed the Threshold values. The human odour threshold is several times higher than the TLV-TWA which is 200ppm and the TLV-STEL is 250ppm.

But TLV-TWA is for 8hrs continuous and TLV-STEL is for 15minutes continuous...were talking about a 3 second sniff.

You need to be careful with methanol...but don't need to freak out about it.

By the Ryan Butt-Dyno for methanol exposure;

If it burns your nose: leave right now and have some booze later.

If you can smell it: don't stay longer than 5 minutes, and have some booze later.

If you can't smell anything, but you get a headache after 15 minutes: leave now and have some booze right away.

If you never did smell anything, and you don't ever get a headache later, and you're sure you didn't get any exposure at all: have some booze...better safe than sorry!

The very last step in any biodiesel procedure is "Have some booze." It'll keep you safe!

Amen, brother ! You just gave me the perfect explanation for my wife as to why I need to keep beer in the same place as the Appleseed processor !