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Dumm question:
has anyone using this method had their fuel tested for flash point or another methanol concentration test (there's a GC method that exists for this) besides the poster in this thread? What were the results?

sorry if this is in the monstrously long thread on the original process, I haven't read the darn thing.
 
Location: Pittsboro, North Carolina | Registered: 07 March 2001Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Hi producer

Yep, I go along with that 100%


Rover 75 + Skoda Fabia on B100
http://www.graham-laming.com
Bicycle on G100 12,000 miles p.a. ( http://tinyurl.com/krppyc )
 
Location: UK | Registered: 04 December 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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I have a supply of CO2 would that work as well as Nitrogen.
 
Location: Suffolk, UK | Registered: 08 November 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Hi producer

Many thanks for the comprehensive explanation of methanol recovery.
 
Location: Nottingham UK | Registered: 14 December 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Hi Jim

CO2 would be fine too.

Here's a thought for you to ponder ... super-low vapour release system with in-built fire extinguisher ...

...mini gasometer on oil. ... constant low pressure less than 1 psi (pressure in psi = floating cap weight in pounds, divided by the surface area of the cap lid in square inches), variable volume as the thermal expansion takes effect, minimal loss of gas or methanol vapour, no route in for oxygen.






The gasometer would be tapped to the outlet of the condenser to minimise high pressure (hot) Methanol vapours from entering the gasometer and causing it to burp.

Purge reactor first, then connect to gasometer full of N or CO2. Not on water, or the CO2 will dissolve, and if using N, the water may freeze in winter.

Advantages:-


  • Sealed system
  • Constant low pressure, but with simple, safe overpressure release ability.
  • Inert environment
  • Self extinguishing in event of leak
  • Visible gas volume available, won't run out unexpectedly
  • Visible gas volume - any leak would be apparent
  • Minimal usage of inert gas - costs/wastage kept low


Mount it outside.

The bottom skirt of the cap can have vee-notches to allow stable, graduated release of over-pressure (in the unlikely event), without causing a big turbulent burp. (which would happen if the skirt were made of simple continuous sheet.)

Procedure for minimal oxygen exposure / minimal methanol release / minimal use of inert gas:-
(Using the EcoSystem processing method)

1. Ensure gasometer is full of inert gas, then shut valve from N tank to gasometer.
2. Fill reactor TO THE BRIM with oil.
3. Shut all vents, and open valve connecting gasometer to reactor via condenser.
4. Drain oil to required processing amount. (this draws nitrogen in, from gasometer)
5. Continue with reaction steps and process.
6. After reaction/methanol removal from biodiesel, pump extra biodiesel into reactor until BRIM FULL.
7. Close valve joining reactor to gasometer (which should now be full again, for re-use next batch)
8. Drain biodiesel for settling / soap removal.


Rover 75 + Skoda Fabia on B100
http://www.graham-laming.com
Bicycle on G100 12,000 miles p.a. ( http://tinyurl.com/krppyc )
 
Location: UK | Registered: 04 December 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Hi GM

You can always give the resulting BD a quick wash if you are concerned about there being a small amount of residual methanol.

As there is negligible soap or glycerol present, the washing and drying is quick and tame.

You can re-use that same wash water time and time (and time and time and time) again - as it will contain very little of concern to the next wash.


Rover 75 + Skoda Fabia on B100
http://www.graham-laming.com
Bicycle on G100 12,000 miles p.a. ( http://tinyurl.com/krppyc )
 
Location: UK | Registered: 04 December 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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ooh, that design is a neat way to do this!!!!!!!!!!

Mark
 
Location: Pittsboro, North Carolina | Registered: 07 March 2001Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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My results suggest that a 5% prewash is a must in order to MAINTAIN high conversion BD. The prewash pulls most of the glycerol out of the BD before the methanol recovery stage. Any dissolved glycerol that remains in the BD after settling tends to drive the reaction in reverse during methanol recovery.

With that in mind I think I will use the hardest water I can fine for the prewash. I want the soap to become insoluble and sticky. If it is sticky, it may pull even more glycerol out during settling.

And, insoluble soaps would still be captured in an ion exchange filter, it one were using such an item.

Just a theory, but I think I will try it. If I do, then I will report results.
 
Location: Illinois | Registered: 21 February 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Incidentally, which ion exchange media would you use for this particular application? I'm interested in this issue.

Mark
 
Location: Pittsboro, North Carolina | Registered: 07 March 2001Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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The only media I have tested/used is Amberlite BD10 Dry. It seams to perform exactly as advertised. It is not a magic cure-all, but it does work well.

What I am now trying to determine is if it works better than advertised when treating BD with less than 400 ppm soap. If it does, then its life will be lengthened, so cost per gallon of BD treated will be reduced.
 
Location: Illinois | Registered: 21 February 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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I think they previously made one just for soap removal from glycerine or perhaps it was salts removal from glycerine (ie acidulate the glycerine and then pass it over a resin bed).
 
Location: Pittsboro, North Carolina | Registered: 07 March 2001Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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HI all: I sent in some to the state lab to be tested and {they were doing them for free) anyway after two months I got the test results back, by email. here they are. " within range, no other info." Evan for free I think they're chargeing to much. But I guess they could have said no good. I use GL's waterless wash with acid base method with lye
 
Registered: 04 July 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by producer:
My results suggest that a 5% prewash is a must in order to MAINTAIN high conversion BD. The prewash pulls most of the glycerol out of the BD before the methanol recovery stage. Any dissolved glycerol that remains in the BD after settling tends to drive the reaction in reverse during methanol recovery.

With that in mind I think I will use the hardest water I can fine for the prewash. I want the soap to become insoluble and sticky. If it is sticky, it may pull even more glycerol out during settling.

And, insoluble soaps would still be captured in an ion exchange filter, it one were using such an item.

Just a theory, but I think I will try it. If I do, then I will report results.


producer,
I use ion exchange resin for my dry wash. Until now I have kept water completely out of my process, but I think that it's worth the small amount of methanol I'd have to sacrifice to achieve a higher quality bd, as in the 5% prewash. I'll be running a batch of 500 gallons today at work with some new KOH (we've used packaged totes of sodium methylate up until now), so I'll be getting results on the FTG by the end of the week. I'll see how the 5% prewash works in my reactor.

-Dave


Dave McCandlish
President, Ohio Agrifuel
B.S., ChE Ohio University
 
Registered: 09 May 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by producer:
.... The operating temperature of the biodiesel can be increased or the temperature in the condenser can be reduced. Either will result in more methanol recovery. But, the maximum methanol recovery will be based on the methanol saturation limit at the operating temperature inside the condenser.

I modified my system with an additional valve not shown in GL's plans (which I used as my guide). The valve opens to the atmosphere and is located between the condenser and the reactor. I open the valve and pull fresh air into the system right at the end of the methanol recovery cycle when, virtually, no more methanol is being captured. The movement of the unsaturated air into the reactor headspace picks up methanol vapor. This air then passes through the condenser and out the vent line to the outside atmosphere. This allows me to achieve very, very low levels of methanol in the biodiesel.


When using a venturi as the G/L system does, there is another force working as well in the in the evaporation of the methanol. As the dryer / methanol removed vapor / air that comes back from the condenser it travels through the venturi which creates a pressure change in the air / fluid mixture which also facilitates the removal of the methanol from the BD.


Dave
 
Location: Portland | Registered: 04 March 2007Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Calkins:
. . . it travels through the venturi which creates a pressure change in the air / fluid mixture which also facilitates the removal of the methanol from the BD.


The low pressure occurs at the inlet side of the venturi.

I think the presence of the open vent to atmosphere would prevent any meaningful pressure changes in a GL processor.

Even if a significant pressure change did occur, wouldn't the low pressure actually occur above the recovered methanol in the condenser collection tank? If so, then the venturi will have a tendency to pull "already recovered" methanol from the condenser and pressurize these methanol vapors back into solution in the biodiesel reactor.

In fact I think this is exactly what happens, but the effect is negligible. Also, the effect is mitigated by increased recovery time and the vacuum at the vacuum draw off point in the reactor.
 
Location: Illinois | Registered: 21 February 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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No the low pressure area is just downstream of the throat of the venturi.


Illegitimi Non Carborundum
 
Location: Utopia Planitia | Registered: 25 February 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by GrahamLaming:
Hi Jim

CO2 would be fine too.

Here's a thought for you to ponder ... super-low vapour release system with in-built fire extinguisher ...

...mini gasometer on oil. ... constant low pressure less than 1 psi (pressure in psi = floating cap weight in pounds, divided by the surface area of the cap lid in square inches), variable volume as the thermal expansion takes effect, minimal loss of gas or methanol vapour, no route in for oxygen.






The gasometer would be tapped to the outlet of the condenser to minimise high pressure (hot) Methanol vapours from entering the gasometer and causing it to burp.

Purge reactor first, then connect to gasometer full of N or CO2. Not on water, or the CO2 will dissolve, and if using N, the water may freeze in winter.

Advantages:-


  • Sealed system
  • Constant low pressure, but with simple, safe overpressure release ability.
  • Inert environment
  • Self extinguishing in event of leak
  • Visible gas volume available, won't run out unexpectedly
  • Visible gas volume - any leak would be apparent
  • Minimal usage of inert gas - costs/wastage kept low


Mount it outside.

The bottom skirt of the cap can have vee-notches to allow stable, graduated release of over-pressure (in the unlikely event), without causing a big turbulent burp. (which would happen if the skirt were made of simple continuous sheet.)

Procedure for minimal oxygen exposure / minimal methanol release / minimal use of inert gas:-
(Using the EcoSystem processing method)

1. Ensure gasometer is full of inert gas, then shut valve from N tank to gasometer.
2. Fill reactor TO THE BRIM with oil.
3. Shut all vents, and open valve connecting gasometer to reactor via condenser.
4. Drain oil to required processing amount. (this draws nitrogen in, from gasometer)
5. Continue with reaction steps and process.
6. After reaction/methanol removal from biodiesel, pump extra biodiesel into reactor until BRIM FULL.
7. Close valve joining reactor to gasometer (which should now be full again, for re-use next batch)
8. Drain biodiesel for settling / soap removal.


Kind of reminds me of a Gobar type methane digester with that large float on top of the biodiesel tank.


Illegitimi Non Carborundum
 
Location: Utopia Planitia | Registered: 25 February 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Spencnaz:
No the low pressure area is just downstream of the throat of the venturi.


Yes, I agree completely, and I think we are saying the same thing.

But, the only reason to create the low pressure zone is to access the low pressure for some purpose. Access to the low pressure zone is gained through the side inlet pipe on the venturi.

So, in effect, the useful zone of low pressure exists at the mouth of the side entry tube in the venturi.
 
Location: Illinois | Registered: 21 February 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Oh ok, sorry misunderstood you there. No worries.


Illegitimi Non Carborundum
 
Location: Utopia Planitia | Registered: 25 February 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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