Yesterday I made a 45 gallon test batch from WVO that titrated at 6.5. After vacuum distilling most of the meth out of it, I took some 1 pint samples and added .03 oz of magnesol and shook it every so often for 15 minutes or so. I filtered out the magnesol (not through my actual batch set up filters--just a coffee filter and gravity). Then I poured some BD in another bottle and added water and shook it.

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quote:

Originally posted by Nuculer:
So I eventually invested in a good filtering system that should be pulling all the MagSil out. (I'm thinking about buying a good microscope to check out the end product.) And my experience shows that it is very economical. Nuculer

Stepping down the filtering to make the fine ones last and having the smallest at 1 micron should cover it, right?

-Jim

"If we are able to use the low cost Nytal 100HB (used in pottery) you are looking at less than $10 for a 50 pound bag + shipping. For me that is about $35 total. If you really can use just 1/16 of an oz per gallon then:
50 pounds * 16oz/pound * 16 gallons/oz = 12,800 gallons treated.
That is .27 cents per gallon.
That is about four gallons per penny."

I'm not clear on one point if anyone could please help. Nytal, according to the Eager website, is referred to as talc but contains no magnesium silicate at all (it is over 1/2 silicon dioxide (i.e. sand) plus other oxides). Are we saying then that it never-the-less works the same as magnesium silicate??

quote:

Originally posted by NoSmoke:


Nytal, according to the Eager website, is referred to as talc but contains no magnesium silicate at all (it is over 1/2 silicon dioxide (i.e. sand) plus other oxides). Are we saying then that it never-the-less works the same as magnesium silicate??

According to R.T. Vanderbuilt industrial minerals and chemicals (the manufacturer) it is calcium magnesium silicate. (http://www.rtvanderbilt.com) Past that they do not have a breakdown posted. I've asked for more information and samples of about 5 different types of Nytal.

As for it being the same, Nuculer posted this back in April:

quote:

As I reported, I had what appears to be good results using 2% Magnesol. Since then I have tried Nytal 400 and have had bad results due to inability to clarify the BD. I have filtered the BD with 2% Nytal 400 throgh a 1 micron filter bag with and without diatomacious earth. The BD remains cloudy (and no amout of heat/bubbling will clear it. Has anyone else done testing on alternative (cheaper) forms of Magnesium Silicate?

I missed that on the first read through. It doesn't look very promising, but I'm still going to get some samples, some documentation, and give it a go.

Let me redo my math using Magnesol at 1/16oz per gallon:
$13.90 for 10 8oz bags + shipping. For me that is $22.46 total. If you really can use just 1/16 of an oz per gallon then:
5 pounds * 16oz/pound * 16 gallons/oz = 1,280 gallons treated.
That is 1.75 cents per gallon.
That is about 57 gallons per dollar.

Did anyone else notice that it is cheaper to buy it in the 8oz packages than in the 22 pound box? 22 pounds is about $110. That is about $2.27 per 8oz. It sells for $1.39 per 8oz bag. Even with shipping I am looking at $2.25 per 8 oz bag. Even if you buy two of the 22 pound boxes (this will give you free shipping) it is more expensive.

So I guess the question is, is it 2% by weight or is it 1/16 oz per gallon????

-Jim

Jim D:

Looks like the Eager website is wrong. Even so, the Nytal 400 appears to be a mixture of calcium and magnesium silicate. It may be the calcium portion that gave Nuculer his filtering problems.

Also, the 1/16 oz per gallon, as you point out, is a lot less than 2% by weight (it is about 0.05% as I calculate it). So, we seem to have a disrepancy here

Been follwowing this thread for a while and getting more excited. I've been making biodiesel for about 2 years and cursed the day I started washing it. Was able to figure out how to avoid severe emulsion but still had problems with cloudiness. so the Magnisol is welcome new. One question is pH? How to neutralize without washing?

Jim D:
I believe in a later post I reported some failures with both Magnesol and the Nytals. Later I determined that I thought they failed because I hadn't gotten enough meth outLast night at 2 AM I finally finished my new set up, and made a 40 gal test batch. I still have Magnesol and bothe types of Nytol. I plan to begin further experiments on all this stuff starting today.

As for wieght discrepancies, I am using weight of MagSil and fluid volume od BD (per gallons) for the convienence.

I had some glitches in my vacuum meth recovery over the past week so I ended up letting the 40 gallon test batch heat up all day and then cool down all night for more than a week. I had used NaOH and when I FINALLY got the meth out and transferred the BD to the settling/wash tank, I had a huge problem with floating foam and gelly like CRAP. I had to use a pool skimmer to fish it out the top of the conical tank. I'm blamming it on the NaOh and the highly unusual heating and cooling cycling. Anyone have a theory on wht that stuff formed? It was about a half gallon of yellowish gelly stuff. Anyway like I said I am ging to be doing extensive testing on BD over the next week or so and will post results. One early observation: I used 1/8 oz per gallon on this first test batch. I circulated through a 5 micron sock filter (X100 from filterbag.com)for 20 mins. Took a sample and added water and shook. No soap appeared in the water. However, after sitting on top of the water all night, the water in the sample now appears to have some soap in it i.e, its alitt;e cloudy. Today I'm going to circulate the 40 gal sample through a Spinner II to see if that gets all the MagSil sub 1 micron particles out (which may be causing the water to cloud. Excuse typos, I need coffee. Nuculer

Just spoke to a rep at the Dallas Group (manufacturer of Magnesol R-60) about a Canadian supplier. Turns out it has to be ordered from them in NJ - price is $1.43/pound in 50 pound bags.

The rep also told me that the R-60 is specifically manufactured for biodiesel use (I had thought it was ordinalily used for some other purpose). He additionally said a one micron filter is fine but recommends first recirculating the BD through the filter for a while to build up a layer of R-60 (on the filter) before the BD is directed to the storage tank. His dosage recommendation is 2% as has been mentioned here before.

He said as well that the Magnesol XL product is similar to R-60 but not specifically designed for BD use.

I guess I have to decide now whether to spring for a 50 lb bag which is likely to run about 150 bucks Canadian once it is delivered here.

That sounds like a good price. Can you give me the contact information? Nuculer

That is how I have been filtering mine out of the biodiesel . So far , I have been very impressed with it .

Brian Bertram, Dallas Group 812-283-6675

He can also send you a pdf on the R60 product.

Hey Brian and everyone,
I just talked to Brian. He said he didn't really want his number up here. He is sending me the PDF's. If you want I can find out how to upload/post them here and act as a clearing house if that does not work. E-mail me and I will send them to you. That will help keep him happy. We are kind of a small segment of his business.
Thanks,
Jim

quote:

Stepping down the filtering to make the fine ones last and having the smallest at 1 micron should cover it, right?

-Jim

If/when I fgure this out, I'll post. Nuculer

quote:

Originally posted by Nuculer:

quote:

Stepping down the filtering to make the fine ones last and having the smallest at 1 micron should cover it, right?

-Jim

If/when I fgure this out, I'll post. Nuculer

The more I read, the more I understand that it will take something lower than that. Or at least dirty up the 1 micron a little by recirculating it for a while to make the 1 micron a little tighter.

That is kind of what the DE does. Plus it has rough/sharp edges to help catch the Talc.

-Jim

quote:

Also, the 1/16 oz per gallon, as you point out, is a lot less than 2% by weight (it is about 0.05% as I calculate it). So, we seem to have a disrepancy here

OK, found some things out from the PDF's. (There are two, a two page'r and a 4 page'r) The tests they had run used 1% with new soy oil and 2% with WVO. They go on and on about it removing water and Methanol. I guess that is why Nuculer is getting good results from 1/16 oz per gallon. He dries before processing and then boils off the Methanol before adding Magnesol. I'm going to dry my WVO and recover my methanol anyway.
.0625 oz per gallon vs. 2.24 oz per gallon is just one more reason. (1.75 cents per gallon vs 63 cents per gallon.)

-Jim

I'm a bit surprised the Magnesol rep didn't want his number posted as there is some potential business from members of this group and, they sell only in 50 lb lots in any case. He first tried to discourage me from trying it, saying that small producers would be better off with washing but nothing in our following conversation led me to believe that especially if Magnesol lives up to its claims. Anyhow, as Jim D mentioned there are pdfs - I have read one of them and it also mentions additional benefits of Magnesol such as removal of metals, chlorophyl, FFAs, odors, colour, methanol and water as well as improvement in oxidative stability. There doesn't seem to be any downside here except a little extra cost.

Spoke too soon about a downside - reading through the pdfs, found that cetane takes a hit with Magnesol compared to washing. For RME, cetane # is about 52, with washing is about 56. Maybe however the difference is not enough to worry about.

quote:

Originally posted by NoSmoke:
Spoke too soon about a downside - reading through the pdfs, found that cetane takes a hit with Magnesol compared to washing. For RME, cetane # is about 52, with washing is about 56. Maybe however the difference is not enough to worry about.

Compared to normal diesel cetane of 37 to 45 the difference between 52 and 56 is no difference.

quote:

OK, found some things out from the PDF's. (There are two, a two page'r and a 4 page'r) The tests they had run used 1% with new soy oil and 2% with WVO. They go on and on about it removing water and Methanol. I guess that is why Nuculer is getting good results from 1/16 oz per gallon. He dries before processing and then boils off the Methanol before adding Magnesol. I'm going to dry my WVO and recover my methanol anyway.

-Jim

It looks like they dried before processing and then removed Methanol before adding the Magnesol. Then they heated to 77*C, added the Magnesol, and mixed for 20 minutes. At 77 there should be NO methanol.

I now have the PDF's stored on my brother's website. Click on the link below and it will take you to them.

-Jim
(http://www.soupwizard.com/solar/files/)

For those of you about to bite the bullet and buy, WAIT!

I'm going to be up at the factory October 13th. I'm planning on purchasing up to a pallet of it and will break it up into smaller amounts for sale. It will be cheaper for us all if I can get enough people to commit to buying some. I'll post soon on prices and quantities.
In the mean time, those of us who are testing can keep reporting what we find out. By next month we will have a good feel for what works.

Unfortunately, by saying all of this it appears that I have put a stake in this stuff working. That is not totally true. Until I actually buy a bunch of it and load it in my truck, I can back away at anytime. If it works, I'm all over it. If it is powdered snake skin, screw it!

-Jim