Dodgeram, the only problem I have heard of with a modern high tech motor relates to methanol damaging a sensor. Whether true or false I do not know. Your main concern appears to be about water damaging the IP, but if you don't wash the fuel there can be no significant water present.

What about the "water that drops out of solution " ? This is what I have heard of with unwashed . Also some people seem to think that the soap may cause injector clogging . Has anyone ever torn down an engine to find out the long term effects of the soap on an engine ?
Thanks ,
Shannon

Correction on my last post :
Not water that comes from producing , but from what I understand it is more likely to carry water from storage tanks and fuel tanks and then when it gets hot it can drop out ?

On the contrary, unwashed biod will contain methanol which will give it the capacity to hold a little water in solution harmlessly. Washed will not. Your source of information appears to be a bit confused because heating the fuel, like adding alcohol, increases its capacity for holding water harmlessly in solution. If fuel is clear, not hazy with finely divided free water, no free water can possibly come out of it when hot.

Do you let your BD sit for three weeks like some people say , or can it be run after separation ? I was thinking of setting up a 500 gallon storage tank that was given to me for storage , but don't know if I will ever be that far ahead , right now I am still buying fuel . If the tank is half full in very hot and humid weather will I have problems with water ? I am adding products to prevent algae , but not anything for water .
Shannon

It doesn't matter whether you are talking about biodiesel or petro diesel any storage tank should be fitted with a drain point for water lower than the outlet for fuel, and periodic drainage from this point should be part of normal procedure.

If you are buying biod your gravest danger, from what I have read on this forum, is that it may be wet. Certainly you should settle it and drain before using it. But more than that, you should check it for water. Take a sample, cool it to the lowest temperature it is likely to experience in use and see if it stays clear. If it goes hazy it is not safe to use. It must be dried or treated by the addition of sufficient alcohol to keep the water in solution.

If you find you need to add an algae controller it seems your fuel is indeed wet.

The question of whether freshly made unwashed biodiesel is safe to use, if perfectly clear, is complex. In my view there is always the danger that enough methanol may evaporate in use to permit a little glycerine to come out. To avoid this all that is needed is to add a little alcohol to the tank as the vehicle is being fueled. Isopropanol is the best alcohol for this purpose. I'm the only one recommending this however so take it with a grain of salt.

Regarding the possibilty of soap clogging the injectors, if the fuel is perfectly clear the soap must be in solution, ie a liquid, and will pass through the filters and will inject just like esters. I do not see how it could clog an injector.

I have not yet had any problems with algae , but want to prevent them . I am not buying biodiesel , but petrodiesel when I run out of bio . If the main concern is methanol loss allowing glycerine to settle out , can't that be overcome by intentionally removing all methanol ? If not by recovery , maybe by bubbling or heating and circulating the fuel . After methanol removal you could then allow it to settle for a day or two before use ? If I can get this wash time down I will easily be able to keep up with my fuel consumption and no longer have to buy diesel , so I am very niterested in any ways that I can get it reduced .

Yes, if you are trying to speed up the process of getting fuel to the vehicle, leaving out the washing stage will help considerably because it also eliminates the drying stage. Removal of methanol by recovery is of course fast but if done by evaporation from an open container cannot be called fast. Removal of methanol using methods similar to those used for drying water out is fast. Once the methanol is gone settling of residual glycerine and some of the soap should be reasonably quick. But for speed nothing beats adding a little alcohol. Just settle the unwashed fuel till clear then add a little alcohol to ensure that it stays clear.

It always strikes me as odd that people happily allow 2.5% of their fuel (the methanol portion) to evaporate away, or be washed away, to get clean fuel but are unwilling to spend the money to buy about 1% alcohol, which would save the 2.5% and thus give 3.5% more total fuel, and even more if it was washing that was avoided.

I can not say what reason anyone else has for wanting to remove the methanol , but I am cautious of damaging my IP . More specifically the module on the side of the pump , a rather expensive repair . I am new to biodiesel , but not to pump problems on the VP44 . The small amout left in the biodiesel may not be enough to damage it , but it is a big gamble . Especially when it is so easy to remove the methanol . I have studied various ways to recover methanol , but have not tried any of them yet . I do plan to attempt to build a vacuum recovery unit for the fuel and the byproduct . I am still reading on the subject though , and still have not got a plan of action for it yet . I was thinking of a few plans , but most likely it will be based on a 100 gallon propane tank . Thank you for your ideas and input on this idea .
Shannon

Neutral

how much Isopropyl are you talking about adding?

and you are adding it to the washed and then dried bio JUST befor you put it in your truck or adding it to the storage tank just after drying?

thanks
Brandon

There are two reasons why you might want to add isopropyl alcohol. With clear unwashed biod you would add the alcohol while fueling the vehicle as the most economical use - just enough to compensate for evaporation in the tank, say 0.5%.

With washed biodiesel, you would normally have to dry it either by evaporation over time in an open vessel or by heating and stirring. This would produce a perfectly clear fuel. If there wasn't time to achieve this you could take a sample of fuel, still hazy with water, and add isopropanol until it turned clear. You would need to add enough to make it stay clear when cooled. The amount required would depend on how far you had got with drying.

so really adding isopropyl to dryed biodiesel is not necessary but would be ok to do anyway as a safty measure?

i'm designing my processor now and wanted to run this by yall

i'm planning to bubble wash. would draining the water out of the tank and leaving the air stone running overnight be acceptable to dry the fuel?

Thanks
Brandon

quote:

Originally posted by neutral:
It always strikes me as odd that people happily allow 2.5% of their fuel (the methanol portion) to evaporate away, or be washed away, to get clean fuel but are unwilling to spend the money to buy about 1% alcohol, which would save the 2.5% and thus give 3.5% more total fuel, and even more if it was washing that was avoided.

What is the 1% people are unwilling to buy that will save you 2.5%? Could you expand a bit on what you mean by this?

-Matt

instead of isopropanol you can also use ethanol

Every year I dump a little 'menthylated spirits' (95% ethanol/5% water) into my vehicles. Usually half a litre in each car (about 1% of the contents of a tank of fuel). It prevents long term water build-up in the fuel system.

Perhaps that is why I have never had a glycerin blockage - back when I was making unwashed biodiesel for my truck.

If I was still making biodiesel, I might be tempted to tip a half litre of the cheaper methanol into the tank every now and then.

Pitr,
You ask: "What is the 1% people are unwilling to buy that will save you 2.5%? Could you expand a bit on what you mean by this?"

People who use biodiesel unwashed often allow it to stand for some time during which the excess methanol, about 2% to 3% of the volume of the fuel, evaporates. As it evaporates the solubility of soaps and glycerol decline and some comes out of solution and settles out. The fuel is now safe from further precipitation of crud and can be stored and used when required.

An alternative is to use the fuel straight away, or to store it sealed to prevent evaporation, and thus get the full value of the methanol content as fuel. This runs the risk of causing some crud to come out in the fuel tank as the methanol evaporates from the tank. This risk can be overcome by adding enough alcohol to offset the evaporation.

UPS just dropped off my shipment of magnesol , and now I have question . I thought the 8oz packs felt a little light , so I put one on the scale and it only weighs 3.4 oz . They must have been speaking of the volume and not the weight ? If that is the case , what are the measurements discussed here ? I had assumed that it would be weight , but just wanted to be sure . I hope to use it on my test batches tomarrow and on a large batch next if the results are as expected .
Thanks ,
Shannon

Dodgeram,
My suggestion to you would be to send the Dallas Group a link to your post at this site. Shorting a customer of weights and measures is a prosecutable crime. It is also no good for business in the long run. I'd send a copy to the president of the company as well as their director of marketing, and your and their states Attornies General, Biodiesel Magazine, John Van Gerpen, the National Biodiesel Board, the National Restaurant Association, the Chinese, Indian and Vietnamese Embassies' Business Liasons, the Better Business Beureau. Then, I hope you will post everyone's response (or lack of it) here. Nowhere that I have seen, does The Dalls group publish that they sell their product by volume.
I would proceed with your experiments within the parameters outlined at the beginning of this thread. That is, remove methanol, then add 2% by weight of Magnasol to unwashed BD, stir, settle, filter.
Keep in mind please that it is the compound that matters, not the brand.
If indeed The Dallas Group shorted you, and will not make good on their deal to supply you (and others by extension) with 8 oz of Magnasol when 8 oz was ordered, the word will get out quickly and I'm sure that a Chinese, Indian or Vietnamese company will be happy to supply the ordered product within the expected specifications, for a competitive fee.
The current market is significant and growing exponentially. Cheats do not belong in business.
Diff

It's not that I am that worried about weather or not they shorted me , but I was wondering about the post indicating that I could remove the methanol and then add 1/8 ounce magnesol per gallon to clean / dry the fuel . I was wanting to verify that it was in fact by weight and not volume . I guess by your post that it is by weight and not volume , thank you for clearing this up . BTW I did find your post amusing , and might yet decide to contact the vietnamese government about this problem . I will keep you posted as to the results .

Dodgeram,
All experiments that I did were based on weight. I used a very small and accurate digital scale. As I recall, as little as 1/16th of an oz worked. I'm a week away from having my new processing system working. When I do, I will do more experiments and will post results. I look forward to hearing about your results. Nuculer