I'm going to try again today and get back. I think I may have had too much methenol in the BD. Thanks Diff.

quote:

Originally posted by Nuculer:
Well I'm a real newbie but I have learned a lot about magnesium silicate. I have discovered several CHEAP alternative MS suppliers. And I mean CHEAP.

Nuculer,
Could you share who these cheap suppliers are? I want to do some testing of cheap MS compared to magnesol, washing, etc..

Thanks!

Here are two:



http://www.eagerplastics.com/nytal400.htm and

http://www.kruegerpottery.com/Dry%20Materials2.htm

I thought you had disapointing results with the off-brand stuff. Did I mis-read?

The initial post showed so much promise but it seems the fervor has died down of recent.

Perhaps a detailed recap is in order?

The bottom line for me is I need to do more experiments, and right now my processor is being reconfigured. To recap: At first I had great success with Magnesol. I eventually was able to clean a gallon of BD with just 1/16th oz of Magnesol. I poured it in and shook the bottle for 20 to 30 minutes. The BD was at about 120F to 130F because I would periodically replace it in a water bath. The cheap MagSil also worked in the same manner. However, even after filtering through a 5 micron filter there always seemed to be a haze to the final BD which I could not remove by bubble drying with heat. (Remember, Diff was filtering it through 1 micron and was useing diatomacious earth to help cake the filter.) I feared there was some sub 5 micron particles in the BD. Now some people have contacted me privately about the cheap MagSil, but have never posted any results. Mike Briggs also contacted me separately from this forum. He is a professor at UNH (I believe he's also the administrator over at BioDieselNow) and will be conducting, then sharing the results of using Magnesol, the cheaper MagSil, and perhaps other substances to "dry wash" BD. His set up is a two 80 gallon water heater Appleseed design. Also, he will be testing meth removal with a vacuum pump which he says vastly speeds up glyc separation. Caveat: I believe he will be trying to determine if the "reverse reaction" begins before the glyc settles and could be drained off. I really look forward to his results. I believe he said some of his results will be posted as early as next week, but further results may be slow in comming because he has a summer class to teach. He will also post a parts list, but here is one I know of now
http://www.thetoolwarehouse.net/shop/FJC-6910.html

Hi Hoon
I would not be too concerned about the lack of input here. I hope it is just that the information is new, people are digesting it, putting in their orders for magnesium silicate, and have yet to work with it. As of this moment, there have been 3,766 views of this thread, vs 60 some posts. On this forum, 60 views per post is a very high ratio, so...something is happening.
Shalom

Nuculer,
In one of the urls you listed above, the following information is included.
MICRON RANGE, listed as non-cumulative percent by weight:
6% 0 - 0.25 microns
8% 0.25 - 0.5 microns
14% 0.59 - 1.0 microns
72% +1.0 microns
That is 28% by weight under 1 micron. That is why you have haze in your product. Using that company's product necesitates the use of a 0 micron filter. A slow process.
The advantage of using a synthetic product, for a specific application, is that it has been (presumably) manufactured to a specification, in this case > 1 mu.
Your inexpensive source also states:
55% under 5 microns.
Your filter is 5 micron. Therefore 55% of what you put in, stays in, and will manifest its presence as haze.
Even though the synthetic product may be twice the price of its natural counterpart, we are looking at the differenc of 1 vs 2 cents per gallon of finished product.
If one ascribes any value to one's time and to fresh water, to me it seems like good value for the money. What we lose in the corners, we make up on the straight aways!
I will happily use talc on babies' bottoms and Dalsorb on biodiesel.

To anyone else reading,
It is intriguing that at this moment, on this forum, hot debates are in progress about to wash or not to wash. Also, this way or that way to wash. Or, the best way to break an emulsion.
One of my favorite cartoons is of a salesman with a briefcase inscribed with "Gattling Gun Company". He is being told by a guard with a longbow. "No! you cannot show your invention to the King. Can't you see? we are preparing for battle!"
It is clear that the importance of soap removal is an arguable issue. However if one wishes to produce ASTM standard product, or if one wishes to use soapless fuel, why continue to waste two precious resources, water and time, when it is no longer necessary to do so?
Diff

Hi Diff,

I've been playing with several test batches & so far I have been getting very good results with MagSil.

Certainly if I can produce good quality fuel without washing I'd be very happy.

Looking through all the posts, the debate of weather to wash or not (or use Mag Silicate) is interesting, However no one seems to be concerned about the possible long term damage to a vehicles fuel pump & injectors by using fuels with soap in it.

Does anyone know if this is a real issue??

Being new to this, what is the best way of testing a batch for soap in the fuel?

Cheers

Tony

Diff:
I agree with everything you said. It was just that the last time I tested the synthetic MagSil (Magnesol), it did not stop soapy water formation when I added water to test, and I believe it was because I had not gotten all the meth out. I will try again soon, but a Florida vacation is about to start. I also have some Florisil samples that are 16/30 and 30/60 mesh. But at about $100 per pound it is a low priority.

Tonymbtr:
What type of MagSil are you using? Magnesol? Also how much do you use per gallon of BD? What type of filter are you using? Thanks.

I would add one thing. Since many restaurants apparently use MagSil and or diatomaceous earth or other fine "clays" for extending oil life, it would seem that using it in processing BD does not neccessariy bring in anything new. We have to assume there are already tiny bits of silicates in the grease and filter accordingly.

Hi Nuculer,

Magnesol (the brand) is not available in Australia. I have tried getting Magnesium Silicate, but all I can souce is Magnesium Trisilicate. I've been told by the chemical supplier that it is the same.

I'm only in the testing stage so far but hope to be producing on a full scale in the next 4-5 weeks.

For my tests I've been using approx 2% as per Diff's original post. My first test was with new oil & was shaken for about 10 sec with the MagSilicate. It's cleared up OK, but is not crystal clear.

I've done more tests with waste oil where I've shaken the Bio & MagSil for 30 sec to a min. they have all cleared up very well very quickly.

Note that I havent filtered any test batches yet. Obviously this will be done with normal production before it goes in my vehicle. Will probably use a 1 or 5 Micron.

I have mixed some of my samples with equal amounts of water & shook like hell for 10 sec. The mixture turned milky but seperated out into clear Bio on top with clear water below. Is this a good indication that there is little or no soap present??? Having little experience in this Im not sure what is good or bad.

Cheers

Tony

Tony, was that Midnight waste Oil? My opinion is that clear water means "success". Nuculer

The waste oil is from my local fast food shop.
It was very dark in colour but had little or no water in it (heated it up to check). They change their oil 2-3 times a week.

So far my testing seems to show all is working well. Cant wait to start making it on a larger scale & running it in my 4WD.

Cheers

Tony

Diff
My initial calculation was that Magnesol would add 60 cents per gallon of BD (using 2%) how are you coming up with 1 cent per gallon? Also, what kind of filter are you using and how much Diatom earth do you use? Thanks,

Nuc

Hey Diff,

So far my tests have shown that most of the mag sil settles out after about 1 week. Have your tests shown the same???

Also, will a 5 micron filter the remaining particles out or is a 1 micron required?

As for my costs here in Oz, it works out to about 6 cents per litre for it....worth the saving in the water alone!

Cheers

Tony

Hey Tonymtber,
Good to hear that it settles out, so it is heavier that the bio. In that case solid/liquid centrifugal separation may be applicable for scales that warrant it.

BTW I have seen magsil used in commercial biodiesel production and removed using a filter press.

Vegenergy:

What's a filter press? Also, I did some more experiments using Magnesol. This time I made sure the methanol was out of the BD before adding the Mag. It worked great with just 1/8 oz. Magnesol per gallon of BD. I refigured my math and that adds just 4 cents per gallon. Can that be true?

Filter presses are also sometime called "Plate and Frame" filters...
Here's a pic of one:
http://www.hilliardcorp.com/starfp.php3

Also..found an online source for small 8oz. packages of Magnasol XL, that may be handy for testing purposes:
http://www.instawares.com/Fryer-Powder-Magnesol-8-Oz.280-1350.0.7.htm

Magnesol fryer powder
http://www.instawares.com/Fryer-Powder-Magnesol-8-Oz.280-1350.0.7.htm $1.49/8oz ($3/lb)

It appears that Magnesol contains Zinc as well. Isn't that supposed to be a no no with BD?
"MAGNESOL es una combinación de varias formas de Magnesio y Zinc de alta pureza" Is the Spanish for:"Magnesol is a combination of various forms of of magnesium and zinc of a geat purity"
http://www.setinedic.edu.pe/nutricional_magnesol.htm The article goes on to describe the health benefits ect.The intresting part is the Zinc. Any takers on it ?
This thread is VERY intresting.
A type of MSDS on Magnesium Silicate
http://www.frankmckinnon.com/magnesol.htm

And on the same subject:
http://www.dolphinmarine.com/biodiesel.htm

And the list of synonyms to Magnesium Silicate Magnesol, being proprietary to The Dallas Group,
http://environmentalchemistry.com/yogi/chemicals/cn/Magnesium%A0Silicate.html

Legal Eagle:
My only comment regarding Zinc is the Iowa State results that The Diff posted early on. All the ASTM results came out great as far as I could tell.

bump