I have read through this entire thread, and apart from my eyes being almost crossed, its fascinating stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by Burlington Biofuels:
Yeap, the Magnasol is inside the filter bag and the biodiesel is pumped through it this way the Magnasol is not directly in the biodiesel tank.

Hey Burl:
I particualrly like the Burlington approach to adding the Magnesol. However - and i think somebody else asked this question - what is to stop the BD from passing through the filter walls, and bypassing the Magnesol?

I can see that when it is in suspension throughout the BD, its likely to be effective in exposing all the BD for reaction - which is how others are doing this.

But i would think that having a clump of Magnesol in a suspended filter bag might be a bit hit and miss on full exposure to all of your BD, even if it is recirculating. Wouldnt the Magnesol kind of clump up in the bottom of the flter, with the BD flowing over the top of it?

I tried to get details from your great website, but i may well be missing some crucial data.

thanks for all the info

Richard

quote:

I know about the problems that have occured. I also subscribe to thedieselstop.com (very informative) I have not had ANY problems with my truck up until this point.

Ian

I've was busy last week sitting in class from 8am to 5pm, 1 hour for dinner, then work groups from 6pm to 11pm.

Were you able to get a sample of the stuff in the fuel line? was there any grit to it?

I've had a sample bottle sitting on the shelf here for a couple of months now. Yes, it is the one that I meant to send in for counting, but have not got-it-done! It was used cooking oil processed to biodiesel, demethanoled, drywashed with magnesol, then gravity filtered through a one micron sock filter. Nothing has collected on the bottom yet that I can see with the naked eye. It is wonderful stuff. I can't imagine that magnesol would be good for a fuel system, but if you are recirculating through a 1 micron filter then you are following the manufacturer's recommendations. It should be catching pretty much everything.
I have not read much about the problems with that engine other than the general warnings at the dieselstop about not buying one, and that the fuel system has lots of problems. I know you said that this is your first time having problems with the engine, but are the problems you had typical for that engine?

-Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Jim D:

quote:

I know about the problems that have occured. I also subscribe to thedieselstop.com (very informative) I have not had ANY problems with my truck up until this point.

Ian

I've was busy last week sitting in class from 8am to 5pm, 1 hour for dinner, then work groups from 6pm to 11pm.

Were you able to get a sample of the stuff in the fuel line? was there any grit to it?

I've had a sample bottle sitting on the shelf here for a couple of months now. Yes, it is the one that I meant to send in for counting, but have not got-it-done! It was used cooking oil processed to biodiesel, demethanoled, drywashed with magnesol, then gravity filtered through a one micron sock filter. Nothing has collected on the bottom yet that I can see with the naked eye. It is wonderful stuff. I can't imagine that magnesol would be good for a fuel system, but if you are recirculating through a 1 micron filter then you are following the manufacturer's recommendations. It should be catching pretty much everything.
I have not read much about the problems with that engine other than the general warnings at the dieselstop about not buying one, and that the fuel system has lots of problems. I know you said that this is your first time having problems with the engine, but are the problems you had typical for that engine?

-Jim

There was NO mention of "grit" in the fuel system. Unfortunately I did not have a sample of the fuel as the tank was almost empty. My problems have been common for the truck (EGR valve, Injector) Fuel pumps can go out occasionally. I truely believe this was just a mechanical failure and a problem with the 6.0L ford engine. The filters in the truck filter 10 microns and 4 microns respectively. NO buildup noticed on the outer mesh and no "gritty" feel to either the filters or housing.

Ian

Ian

I have done some test on BD samples filtered with Magnesol. I compared samples of bubblewashed BD and Magnesol filtered BD. The bubblewashed samples passed on all test while there were two test that failed on the Magnesol samples. That was carbon residue and sulfated ash. Their description can be found here.

Soluble metallic soaps have little effect on wear but may contribute to filter plugging and engine deposits. Abrasive solids and unremoved catalysts can contribute to injector, fuel pump, piston and ring wear, and to engine deposits. Carbon residue provide some indication of the relative coke forming tendency of such materials.

I did a soap test after bubblewashing and filtering with Magnesol. On the bubblewashed samples, the soap is about 400-500 ppm, while the Magnesol samples have no soap. Since the bubblewashed samples pass and the Magnesol failed, I believe it is Magnesol and/or diatomaceous earth getting through the filter. I was filtering through a 1 mu filter sock packed with diatomaceous earth, recirculating the sample. I now vacuum filter through diatomaceous earth a few times, but I have not sent any samples out to test how well it filters. I am trying to figure out how they perform the test, so that I can do it myself.

quote:

I now vacuum filter through diatomaceous earth a few times, but I have not sent any samples out to test how well it filters. I am trying to figure out how they perform the test, so that I can do it myself.

The simplest test is the patch test. A basic description is:
a method by which a specified volume of fluid is filtered through a membrane filter of known pore structure. All particulate matter in excess of an "average size," determined by the membrane characteristics, is retained on its surface. Thus, the membrane is discolored by an amount proportional to the particulate level of the fluid sample. Visually comparing the test filter with standard patches of known contamination levels determines acceptability for a given fluid.

Field Test Kit sales site

Procedure with pictures

-Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Jim D:

quote:

I now vacuum filter through diatomaceous earth a few times, but I have not sent any samples out to test how well it filters. I am trying to figure out how they perform the test, so that I can do it myself.

The simplest test is the patch test. A basic description is:
a method by which a specified volume of fluid is filtered through a membrane filter of known pore structure. All particulate matter in excess of an "average size," determined by the membrane characteristics, is retained on its surface. Thus, the membrane is discolored by an amount proportional to the particulate level of the fluid sample. Visually comparing the test filter with standard patches of known contamination levels determines acceptability for a given fluid.

Field Test Kit sales site

Procedure with pictures

-Jim

I filter down to 1 micron and am in the process of getting a 0.4 micron absolute rated filter and using that inline with my other filters. How small do these particles get. How do we get the Biodiesel to pass the ash test. My truck filters go down to 4 microns surely this is enough. How many particles does it take to hurt the engine. Should I be rethinking my filtering process here. with water washing, my only concern was making sure the water was gone. I never tested for soap when using water.

Jim, Do you have a direct email or phone number I can call for the Dallas group (PM me with it please)

Ian

How would the magnesol particles look under a microscope? At work we count yeast cells on a grid (hemacytometer) and they are filtered out at .5 microns.

I'll try looking at some biodiesel with mag. under the scope and see what I see...

Chris E.

quote:

I filter down to 1 micron and am in the process of getting a 0.4 micron absolute rated filter and using that inline with my other filters.

I just re-read what the Dallas Group put out and it says recirculate through a 1 micron absolute filter. I have been passing mine through a 1 micron nominal filter. I guess I better switch to an absolute filter.

quote:

How small do these particles get.

Another of their documents says that the R60 variety has a mean particle size of 65 to 72 microns. No mention of how small the smallest particle is.

quote:

How do we get the Biodiesel to pass the ash test.

No idea. That might be a good question for a university professor.

quote:

My truck filters go down to 4 microns surely this is enough. How many particles does it take to hurt the engine. Should I be rethinking my filtering process here.

I think we need to do some patch testing. That will establish how clean the biodiesel is that your process is producing. We can bounce that info off of what the ISO cleanliness requirement code is for diesel fuel injectors. My gut says that you are doing a good job filtering. Maybe a 1 micron absolute would be better than what you were using, but the .4 micron absolute filter you are getting is even better than that.

quote:

Jim, Do you have a direct email or phone number I can call for the Dallas group (PM me with it please)

PM'd you a few minutes ago.

-Jim

quote:

My truck filters go down to 4 microns surely this is enough.Ian

Here is some info from a company trying to sell 1 micron absolute filters for your truck.
1 micron #7132 element

Here is some info from a guy who decided the fuel he was getting from the pump was just not clean enough. A good one page read. CAT filter

Some background info on what the ISO code number means. Kaydon info on ISO

Some really good info on particle counters. How they work, theory of operation, etc...
Oil Analysis 101

Reall good articles about the dirty fuel problem!
Trucking's dirty little secret
sidebar - injector failures
Keeping fuel clean

OK, that's enough links. There is lots of good info out there.

Found one more. Ian, this may be more along the lines of what you had.
Is tighter filtration the answer?

Maybe this needs to be a new thread about crappy contaminated fuel, what it does, and how to get rid of it.

-Jim

Jim, that was a bunch of reading. I did not know that a 2 microon particle is 200 times SMALLER than a 5 micron particle. I am definetly rethinking my filtration process. I will be looking into absolute filters and seeing if there are any out there that are reusable.

Ian

Yes, agreed, good reading. Now I have even better insight as to why lots of the TDIers put the CAT filter in.

Sounds like my microscope/hemacytometer would be a poor man's visual particle count...

Are there not some commercial producers using magnesol and would they be willing to share their experiences with us???

quote:

Originally posted by IanTucker:
I am definetly rethinking my filtration process. I will be looking into absolute filters and seeing if there are any out there that are reusable.
Ian

I wouldn't rethink it too much. Every stage of your process does remove "stuff". The only thing you need to add is an 1 micron absolute or smaller filter as a final filter. Everything else can be nominal. Nominal just means that for every 1000 particles that come in, it catches 500. It does a better job catching the particles that are larger than its rating. Absolute means different things to different manufacturers, but the weakest interpretation is that it will catch 900 of the 1000 particles at its rated size. Some manufacturers, like Hy-Pro, go the other way with it. (For some reason their website is down right now. I just emailed their national accounts manager to see what's going on.) To them absolute means that it will catch 995 of the 1000 particles.

I found a follow up story link on the nicktane website.
A follow up story about dirty fuel

-Jim

There is one thing I want to add before a little knowledge turns into a dangerous thing. While I was at filtration school last fall I was starting to get the bright idea to add better filtration to my truck and van. Luckily the instructor brought up why that would be a bad idea in some cases. It turns out that some of the additives that make motor oil so good at what it does can be filtered out if you filter your motor oil smaller than 30 microns! What he did suggest was to make sure that you were using a high quality synthetic fiber media that is rated for 30 microns (absolute rated if you can find it.) An extra filter is a great idea, so long as you do not go below the 30 micron point.

-Jim

quote:

Originally posted by biodavid:
4) Optional Step : add about 5 ml of acetic acid for every Liter of biodiesel and recirculate for 15 minutes. Let settle for about one hour, then drain out the settled acid and any precipitate from the bottom valve. This will precipitate out any unused KOH and will break apart any minor emulsions.

The www.burlingbiodiesel.org website uses 70mL per 93 gallons, 353 Liters, of oil. I remembered it wrong. I thought they used 170mL per 93 gallons. Based on that I used 90mL in my 40 gallon batch.
Man, is that stuff a little wierd. I had to run my heater on it to get it to melt! It freezes at 61-62 degrees F!!! It boils at around 240 deg F. It's flash point is about 102 deg F! That is not a good thing when you cosider that you add it after you have removed the methanol.

So by the instructions above I should be using 760mL of Acetic Acid in my 40 gallon batch. Based on the Burlington Biodiesel numbers I should be using about 30mL. I used 90mL. (Mostly because the turkey baister that I used to get the acid out of the barrel and into my processor held 45mL at a time.)

I'm going to kill the power to the shed now to turn off the pump. Yep, I'm that lazy. I'll drain the precipitate out in the morning and then do a soap test to see where I stand.

Even after I get the soap test numbers, I think I am just going to pump it into a barrel and call it good enough for now. I'm waiting on a cone bottom tank and finishing some classes right now. Treating with magnesol will just have to wait.

-Jim

Alright guys, this is 4 posts in a row for me. Doesn't anyone have anything to say?

Since my last post I have drain off the junk and soap tested. When I first made the batch I though I screwed up, so I reprocessed with more KOH & methanol. Yep, I keep doing that. Someday I will learn. I ended up with 3100ppm soap. Crap. After the first treatment of 90mL I ended up with 2100ppm soap.
Then I added 110mL more, circulated, let settle, drained off more glycerin (and some really thick sticky stuff that was plugging my drain!). The soap test after that gave me 1596ppm soap.
I just added another 305mL and I am recirculating right now. That brings me up to a total of 505mL. The guidance from the Dallas group says 5mL per liter. I have 152L in my processor. That works out to 760mL. I hope 505mL will be enough.
If it takes 505mL for every 40 gallons then it will add $1 per 40 gallons to the cost.
If I can just trust the calculations and not keep reprocessing maybe I can start at 1500ppm and then knock it down from there with acid!
Live and Learn.

-Jim

If you want questions, I'd like to ask what happens when your performing the soap test on a batch that is already acidic (has an acid value of 0.6 mgKOH/g oil) and you titrate with HCl - Does the titration value still work for ppm soap or do you have to neutralize with NaOH/Phenyl and then HCl titrate???

Thanks,
Foxcreek

Agggh! Too much information!

Give me a minute to get through it!

-Jim

quote:

Originally posted by foxcreek:
If you want questions, I'd like to ask what happens when your performing the soap test on a batch that is already acidic (has an acid value of 0.6 mgKOH/g oil) and you titrate with HCl - Does the titration value still work for ppm soap or do you have to neutralize with NaOH/Phenyl and then HCl titrate???
Thanks,
Foxcreek

I just let it settle for anywhere from 1 hour -overnight. Then I drain off the sludge from the bottom. I'm running wide open on assumptions here. I ASSUME that there is enough caustic to handle all of the acid I am adding. I ASSUME that whatever is left of the acid and whatever it knocks loose by applying it sinks to the bottom and gets drained out through my drain. I ASSUME that whatever the soap test results are is what I should base my Magnesol % on.
Remember, this is my first time trying the Acetic Acid. I'm cookbooking it based on the Dallas Group's instructions. I don't have any of the chemistry worked out. I don't know what is reacting with what. I'm following the instructions and seeing what happens. (Except that I am applying my acid in stages instead of all at once.)
If anyone out there can answer the above questions, please chime in!
As for my soap test:
I put 100mL of Red Heet (ISO alcohol) in a 250mL Erlenmeyer flask and add 15 drops of Bromophenol Blue. I weight this on my Ohaus 3 beam balance. (Right around 202grams.) To that I add 10 grams of biodiesel. I swirl to get it all mixed up. Then I take my .01 HCL and add it, swirling to mix, until the mess changes to a nice yellow with not hints of dark. (Just barely fully yellow.) Then I multiply the number of mL of .01 HCL by 304 to get ppm soap.

The target clay is off, everyone start shooting!!!

-Jim

quote:

Originally posted by BeetDiesel:
Hi Diff,

I was hoping to experiment with magnesium silicate soon, as I've read much about it. Thanks for paving the way for other home-brewers!

A few questions:

How have you developed your method, ie: 2% by weight, mixed for 20-30min, etc...?

Have you seen a difference in longer or shorter mixing times, and possibly more or less of a percentage of Magnasol?

Please describe you filtration setup. How can you achieve this layer of diatomacious earth on top of your filter? What type of filter/housing are you using?

Thanks Again!
-Nick

After I use magnesium silicate, should I wash it with water again.
thanks...

I just did some bench tests with Magnesol and unwashed biodiesel. I followed the instructions and used 1% mag per 800 ppm of soap. I held the temp at 76C for 20-min under agitation and allowed it to settle. The BD cleared and the soap was < 100ppm. My starting soap was ~900ppm.

I left another sample stir at ~110C for ~2hrs and on low heat ~60C over night. The BD was incredibly clear and the magnesol on the bottom of the flask looked slightly off-white.

It really looked like the magnesol did a much better job at the elevated temp and duration. Any thoughts?