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member 2009 Sponsor |
Here's one link quickly found by googling "diatomaceous earth". It's a naturally occuring fossilized sea creature remnant, rather like chalk. Commonly used for improving the efficiency of fabric swimming pool filters. To clean them, you wash off the layer of dirty diatomacious earth, return the water flow through the filter disks, and swirl a double-handfull of fresh 'earth into the water, where it coats the fabric with a porous layer that packs tightly enough to only permit very small particles to pass through. The cloud of 'earth that initially swishes through the filter fabric eventually ends up on the outside, thanks to recirculation, or else in a layer on the pool bottom. I hate to think what it would do to an IP, so it should not be used as a final filter for our purposes.
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OK Guys n Gals - have found out that there is various grades of DE, the 2 main ones being Food and Pool, the difference is, is that pool grade has been heat treated so that it doesn't act like a pesticide, which doesn't really help which one to use, not sure which variety they use in Water Treatment plants though.
here is a site thatsells food grade - although prices shown only go to 50lbs they do sell 200 lbs - having said that, I guess even 50 lbs will go a long way http://www.internet-grocer.com/diatome.htm Rob
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I am no math whiz but doesn't 2% by weight of Magnesol (selling for around $100 per 22 pound box) work out to adding about 60 cents to a gallon of BD?
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member 2009 Sponsor |
That would appear to be the correct cost calculation, unless the Magnesol is available cheaper somehow. Perhaps we need to pre-treat the BD so the Magnesol lasts longer, therefore cheaper per gallon. For example we could let the freshly made biodiesel air-dry and settle for a few weeks, to drive off the methanol (assuming it wasn't distilled off) and allow the soaps and glycerides to settle first. I guess this method could legitimately be called "dry cleaning"?
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Master_U :
Regarding your post.. OK Guys n Gals - have found out that there is various grades of DE, the 2 main ones being Food and Pool, the difference is, is that pool grade has been heat treated so that it doesn't act like a pesticide, which doesn't really help which one to use, not sure which variety they use in Water Treatment plants though. My understanding about DE being used as a pesticide is that it kills because of the rough very sharp edges of the shells from the little tiny creatures that formed it. It is not a pesticide per see but simply ruptures the skin or shell of the bugs due to little pointy edges & kills them by causing them to bleed to death along with it's desiccating action. The heat treated type likely just melts over the little edges. Not sure why they would do that though unless they require very dry DE. 1991 Dodge W250 4x4 Cummins 12 valve |
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Could not the Magnesol be cleaned and re-used? I expect the DE could.
This whole discussion has me pondering drying agents. Having a full and fresh gallon of denatured alcohol, typically used for cleaning electronics in my world, I read that plaster of paris might absorb the water leaving a pure ehtanol/methanol mix. I'll be playing with this while I await my scale for titration. I read the posts on silica gel adn understand why it will not do any good. But I kept hearing about "molecular sieves." Well, these "purpose built" dessicants seem to be little more than specialized silica gel. OK--very different molecules but the same basic principle. Only, lots of varieties--including ones that will trap meth. This latter feature makes some good sense: pull out moisture and methanol (or ehtanol) with a mol sieve and reclaim it later in the drying process. We get dry BD more quickly adn tidy up after. Is this "pie in the sky" chemistry or does it make sense? |
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Yes thats what I understood as well, I was wondering which type to use to allow the R60 to cake though, if there was a difference (if any) Best Wishes Rob |
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say, you wouldnt be the same mike l. that runs a missionary organization based out of chicgo?
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I made some BD using the Dr. Pepper method (virgin peanut oil, 22% meth, 3.5 gms of lye), but no washing. I put 20 ounces of the BD in another bottle and added 1 oz (too much, I know) Magnesol. The BD was in a water bath at 130F. I agitated the mixture for about 20 minutes. I put an ounce or two of DE (swimming pool grade) in a coffee filter which I placed inside of a funnel. I strained the BD and Magnesol through the filter. It took a lot of time, probably because I had used so much Magnesol. What came out the other side looked pretty clear. I added about 8 ounces of water and shook. The water separated pretty quickly and was very clear and had no soap. I took some of the same batch of BD with no Magnesol and added water and shook. I got a layer of soapy water at the bottom, a thin layer of more solid looking soap, and a large layer at the top of opaque BD. Based on this, talcum powder (magnesium silicate) looks very encouraging like Diff said. Howeever the added cost of 60 cents is prohibitive. According to my google searches there appears to be various grades of talc. The higher grades are used in cosmetics and in the food industry. I want to locate a bulk source that provides low grade talc. So far I've only found that Chinese-exporting site which I'm betting is only interested in selling rail cars of the stuff. I also found one source that sells 50 lbs for $200 (US). That's still too high. I'm going to do some experiments using 50/50 blend of DE and Talc added to the BD and see what happens. What have others discovered? Dave
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I've used a lot of diatameceous earth in the corn milling plant where I worked for 14 years. We called it precoat. It is available in several grades based mostly on the particle size. We used it in a couple different styles of filters. In my experience, it would not be reusable, once it was impregnated with the residue it was filtering out. I have also bought some at the local garden store to use as bug killer as mentioned above. It appears to be very fine so I don't know how it would work as a filtering agent, but it would be worth a try.
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Everyone:
I have a cousin (a farmer) who I provide with BD who told me he uses talc in his feed mill. He buys the stuff by pallets. He says he could provide me with it at cost in an exchange for my BD. I could sell it to anyone interested for $100 per 50 lb bag, plus shipping via UPS. I don't think that would add too much, but I would have to check. I could probably also sell smaller amounts too. If interested email me at dave@nuculer.com Thanks. |
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I am interviewing a potential supplier of WVO tomorrow. He can supply me about 90 lbs/week --as much as I want. The oil is Peanut so I hope (and think) it's OK.
Apparently, Magnesol is commonly used in these industrial kitchens. Should I ask for WVO that has been pre-treated? This would seem to offer me very clean stock. |
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Thanks Chug and Diff for helping train me on how to use this forum. I will go to the Palm Oil site and post away.
Mike Lasche |
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So, to recap, it looks like Nuculer (nice handle, BTW) has offered the only lay research in this thread.
As I understand it, this Waterless approach works like this: 1) Process as normal and then drain off byproduct. 2) Mix in 2% magnesium silicate (talcum powder?) 3) Stir. 4) Next, it all through a filter, the inside of which has been coated with diatomaceous earth. 5) Pour resulting squeaky clean biodiesel in vehicle and drive off like nothing ever happened. Has anyone tried this yet on any kind of scale? Run it in a vehicle? Any big worries (other than cost)? How to explain to your mechanic that the problem you're having could be baby powder in the fuel? I sure like the idea of being able to avoid water washing. |
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Update: I've done several successful Dr. Pepper style batches using 2% Magnesol but no DE. The DE wasn't neccessary. I just used a coffee filter. But it is VERY slow. What does any one suggest? The BD runs great in my diesel generator and looks clear as washed.
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member 2009 Sponsor |
Are you filtering through something finer after the coffee filter? They're not fine enough to protect the injection system. Presummably the generator engine also has a filter system.
Perhaps it would be faster to use a pressure "demand" pump, such as a Flojet, to push it through a string-wound water filter. That's what I've been using for prefiltering BD and as an intermediate SVO filter. To get the flow rate high enough to satisfy my impatience I ganged 5 filters together in parallel for SVO. I ganged 2 in parallel for BD, followed by a single Racor 2-micron filter. Keep us posted. This is very interesting. |
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johno,
how long do the filters last? regards dva |
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I know I was being pretty gonzo with the coffee filter but I only ran about a quart through my generator. I will look into your system for filtering when I get my bigger appleseed system up and running. I tried using some cheaper magnesium silicate I got from my cousin but so far it is so fine that the coffee filter and two conical grease filters couldn't stop the MS from getting through. The diatomacious earth also got past the coffee filter, and if you use too much it simply forms a paste with the BD and clogs up the filter. I ordered a 1 micron sock filter to see how that does with these small batches. I'll keep you posted. I hope others are out there doing "research" on this and can share their results. I would gladly send some of my cheapo MS to anyone who will do testing with it on a larger scale. So far I have only tested BD derived from virgin peanut oil. Ill try to attach a picture. In the background is my Hot Tub BD reactor which has filtering and bubble washing features (Pat. Pend.)
 This message has been edited. Last edited by: Nuculer,  BD_with_Magnesol.JPG (649 KB, 329 downloads) BD with Magnesol |
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