The little sample bottle is laughing at me as we speak. It is right above my computer. It has been there for weeks. I've been so busy with school, work, travel, and the family that I have not sat down and figured out how to ship fuel.
-Jim

Thanks, Jim got my ninepounder in the mailbox today! Very prompt. I am really looking forward to testing it out!

I did read all 17 pages of this thread but it's been going on a while now. I apologize if this is back there somewhere.

Has anyone settled on one prticular filtration system that might be widely adopted (a la the infamous 1in clear water pump)?

Is one micron absolute an "overkill" or would .5 be the "overkill" option? I'd like to use a (series of) filter(s) that would allow me to sleep at night!

Who's got pictures to post?

Thanks all, I'll report on my own experiences when I can.

Chris E.

I don't know how to post a poll. Maybe you guys can help me out on this.

I'm curious as to how many poeple are currently successfully using this waterless washing system?

I would also be interested to find out how much in increases your production costs. Granted it will cost more per gallon or liter if you prefer but it takes me two full days to wash my batches. I would speculate that most of the reasong for this is the quality of my water.

You know how your first and second batch of wash water looks after you drain it? All cloudy and tiny particles floating around in it? This is how my water comes out of the tap.

I could probably make my water washing process easier if I filter it. The spigot in the basement (which is where I'm set up) is plummed before the filter. Of course our "filtered" water aint too hot either.

The bottom line is that I am very interested in this process. My wash time is killing me.

Anyway, just thought I'd try to get a feel for how many are using this process of dry washing.

Thanks,

Wayne

If the site will only allow pictures ...then scan the document and save it as a .jpg the site will "think" it is a picture ..see how you go ..
Regards Kev

quote:

Originally posted by WayneThomas:

I'm curious as to how many poeple are currently successfully using this waterless washing system?

I'm not sure any of us have it to a system yet. I think we are all trying to get a handle on the quirks and get them worked out. The biggest quirk I see is dealing with the volume of Magnesol R60 during filtration. There seems to be three ways to deal with bulk removal of magnesol.
[LIST]

The first is settling. Set up a standpipe barrel and allow the biodiesel/magnesol mixture to settle after it has been mixed for 20+minutes. This allows the bulk of the magnesol to fall out of suspension.

Stage filter with sock/bag filters. Set up a bag or two of progressively smaller micron bags to catch the larger particles in the larger micron bag so that you don't clog up the finer bags immediately.

Use a centrifuge, like a spinner II from www.spinnerii.com , to spin out the magnesol. Reported to be extremely effective. I have not hear of the price yet. The only drawback beside price is that you have to shut down you pump and clean the bowl a couple of times during processing. They make several sizes of these, but the larger bowl models are made to handle larger volumes. We need the smaller capacity certrifuge with a large capacity bowl. The cleaning is reportedly easy and not very messy.

After that is done the mostly clean biodiesel needs to be recirculated through a 1 micron filter to polish the fuel up and remove the small particles. I don't think .5 micron would be overkill at this point. While most fuel handlers rarely filter below 10 micron, they also don't have magnesol to deal with. (The do have the standard sand, dirt, and metal particles to deal with though.) How small is enough? At this point who knows.
Until I find out the price of the various spinner centrifuges I am leaning toward welding two barrels on top of each other, cutting a 6 inch hole in the wall that connects the two barrels, and dropping a trade size 2 (7 inch ring, 32 inches long), 50 micron sock filter in
to do the first pass filtering. This will allow me to just dump my 40 gallon batches into the top and walk away. No babysitting to make sure that the sock does not overflow. I may do a couple of these (50/20/5 micron?) and then run the final part through a 1 micron house filter.
Now that I have read that, I am leaning toward a settling tank! I just want easy and reliable.

Time, time, time... I need more time.

-Jim

Does the magnesium silicate powder impart any undesirables into the BD afterwards?
PD

What was with the diatomous(sp) earth? I remember something about that earlier in the thread but can't remember?
Do we just use new sock filters, or did I read ther was something we need to do to them?

Diatomaceous earth is a product used in some types of swimming pool filters... check your local "Pools R Us" or some such place....

thanks.
but i was wondering how it appled to this process. is it true we need to somehow coat our filters with it? i read it earlier in the thread but havent seen it since...

That's what I remember reading, that the dim.. earth was used to coat the filter and then could possibly be washed to recycle it. I went back through the entire thread but couldn't find the post that talked about that. This thread has gotten to be soooo long it's gotten a bit unruley.

I'd sure hate to see info get lost on this topic or for that matter for poeple to loose interest due having such a long thread to wade through to find anything.

Maybe we could somehow summerize the topic? Of course this would require the experts that have already gone to all the effort to put this info out in the first place to go back and gather and "tidy" it up.

I just really really would hate to see such a potentially ground breaking thread like this to just die out.

A week or two ago I asked the question, how many people are actually using this process sucessfully? Or even semi sucessfully for that matter.

Maybe the folks that are using this/running experiments with could give us an update as to how things are working out and what conclusions have been so far drawn?

Gathering the nasty azz smelly oil is by far the worst part of the process but the washing cycle is so far the longest/most time consuming part of the process. It takes me at least a day and a half of washing to get it clean enough for drying.

My system is to do at least 3 semi-static washes where I gently add the water and lightly stirr with a spoon becoming gradually more aggressive after the first wash. Then I bubble wash in 6 hour increments at least 3 but often up to 7 times using about a 1/3 water to 2/3 Bd ratio.

If I even try to skimp and throw it in the dryer prematurely I get floaters and have to put it back in the wash anyway.

Wayne

quote:

A week or two ago I asked the question, how many people are actually using this process sucessfully? Or even semi sucessfully for that matter.

Well I am running my first 25 gallon batch of Magnasol washed Biodiesel. I managed to get my soap down to =/< 91.32 PPM. My setup is a 50 micron sock, 20 micron and a 2 micron filter for 2-3 hours. I must admit its MUCH quicker and cleaner than water wash. The Biodiesel seems to be much clearer and sparkling. I will finish my other Biodiesel with a final 1 micron filter to see if I can get the soap down even further.

HTH

Ian

Reducing or eliminating the water consumed in biodiesel production was a big drive for me in ordering the 50lb bag of Magnesol R60 from fryer Power

I did a Dr P of unwashed BD by useing the 2% method (1 liter of BD and 20 grams of Mag).

Shook it and heated it slightly for about 30 min and poured it through a 1 micron filter sock.

I then took it inside and added about 3/4 liter of warm water and shook the mess out of it. Looked like a milk shake and I was thinking I'd need to try it again.

Not so, within the hour it seperated with crystal clear water at the bottom.

Now for the big batch and I too will probably use a progresion of filter socks starting with 25 and finaly with a 1 micron.

Will keep posted..

quote:

Originally posted by ajrider:
Reducing or eliminating the water consumed in biodiesel production was a big drive for me in ordering the 50lb bag of Magnesol R60 from fryer Power

I did a Dr P of unwashed BD by useing the 2% method (1 liter of BD and 20 grams of Mag).

Shook it and heated it slightly for about 30 min and poured it through a 1 micron filter sock.

I then took it inside and added about 3/4 liter of warm water and shook the mess out of it. Looked like a milk shake and I was thinking I'd need to try it again.

Not so, within the hour it seperated with crystal clear water at the bottom.

Now for the big batch and I too will probably use a progresion of filter socks starting with 25 and finaly with a 1 micron.

Will keep posted..

Try a 50 micron filter at the start of the filtering process, it will make your other filters last longer as Magnasol is 40% 60 microns in size.

HTH

Ian

If anyone wants to know how to make sure that you will use LOTS of Magnesol have I got a method for you!

I was running my first batch in my new 55 gallon barrel type processor last week. I put in 40 gallons of oil that titrated at 1. I'm using up the last of my NaOH so I needed 909 grams of NaOH and 10 gallons of methanol.
(151.5 Liters * 6g/Liter (5 + 1 for titration) = 909 grams of NaOH.)
The problem was that I only had about 750 grams of NaOH. I went ahead and did the batch reasoning that since the earlier base assumption was 3.5g per liter and it worked for most people as long as the oil was nice and dry that I could get away with it. After all 750 g comes out to 4.95 g/l. That is about 3.95 g/l base + 1 g/l for titration.
So far so good.
By the end of the process I had about 7 gallons of glycerin. Thinking that I should have had about 10 gallons I decided to reprocess the biodiesel with 3 gallons of methanol and 200 g of NaOH (I had to go buy another bottle of Red Devil just to do this.) Did I run a 1 liter batch first to see if anything would drop out? NNNOOOO! I just jumped right in feet first and did the whole batch. I only got about another quart of glycerin out of the second run.
What I did get was a REALLY high soap content in the biodiesel. It took 31mL of .01N HCL to get the color to change on the soap test with 10g of biodiesel and 100mL of IsoHeet.

Using:
PPM soap = (mL .01N HCL * 3044)/weight of sample in grams
I got 9436.4 PPM!!!! That means that I need 12% by weight to treat the biodiesel!!!! Something like 36.5 pounds!!!

Obviously, the key to successfully keeping costs down while washing with magnesol is to do your titrations dead on, know exactly how much oil is going in your processor, and finding a good formula for deciding how much Lye to use. I looks to me like 4g/L + titration may be an acceptable amount to use. I wish I had a sample of the biodiesel from the first run to test for soap.

Now to the next problem, how do I reduce the soap content without using magnesol?

Since I still had my 7 gallons of glycerin from the first run sitting off to the side, and since soap/NaOH seems to like the glycerin more than it likes the biodiesel, I put the glycerin back in to the processor. Then I replumbed the methoxide suction line over to my low point drain so that my HF pump is pulling mostly from the bottom of the tank, where all of the glycerin ends up, and throwing it back in at the top of the tank. I ran it for an hour last night, but shut it off to go to bed. I need to get another Christmas light timer since my BD one is now in the front yard running the spot lights!

One step forward, two steps back...

-Jim

I just spoke with someone yesterday who is using two of the X100 housings in parallel x100 with 1 micron felt sock filters in each housing. He is having trouble with the soap test so he is shotgunning his magnesol addition by using 1.5% by weight. He is using about 1.5% by weight on a 40 gallon batch (2kg of magnesol R60) and says that the two socks are just barely big enough to hold all of the magnesol. That allows him to run one batch without having to change/clean the filters.
One possible addition to this set up could be a single 50 micron sock before the two existing socks or possibly settling for a 1/2 hour to an hour to get out some of the bulk.

-Jim

I've been using magnesol r60 for a couple of test runs and one 90 gallon batch. It's working great at 1% by weight so long as the glycerin and methanol are removed before "absorbent washing". I haven't noticed any filter problems which require the need for diatomaceous earth. Magnesol R60's average grain size is 30-70 microns, assuming some grains can be as small as 20 micron, primary filter can be 20 micron sock, then run through a 10 with recirculation, then 2micron with recirculation. At the bottom of the method below is the link to the magnesol patent and claims. It's very informative.
Magnesol 101

Via research at Iowa State and the The Dallas Group of America, an alternative wash method for removing contaminants in biodiesel has been discovered as an alternative to “water washing” . This alternative wash method implements the use of an “absorbent material”, that acts as a selective sponge to remove soaps, glycerin, water and acids from biodiesel. The preferred absorbent material is Magnesium silicate, also known as talc, talcum powder, baby powder, and for our purposes Magnesol R60 (synthetic MgSi trademarked by The Dallas Group). Here is a list of why we chose Magnesol as our “absorbent material”:
1) 1g of magnesol has a surface area of 300 - 700 square meters
2) particle size ranges 20 – 70 microns, (thus is easily filtered with a 10 micron filter)
3) reduces the need to treat wash water
4) magnesol is nontoxic, non-flammable, non-corrosive and biodegradable (we compost the precipitate)
5) In washing 1 gallon of biodiesel, the cost of magnesol is 4-8 cents per gallon of biodiesel.

Magnesol can be bought in 50lb bags for around $1 a pound from the Dallas Group. It is generally used in the amount of 1-2% of total weight of a biodiesel sample. One liter of biodiesel weighs about 800g; therefore 8-16g of magnesol are required to remove the unwanted contaminants from a one liter sample. Research at Iowa State has demonstrated that the use of magnesol removes a larger percentage of glycerin and soap than conventional water washing, while also eliminating the need for high-energy input drying of biodiesel.

The procedure
1) Remove glycerin from the biodiesel (as much as possible)
2) Remove methanol from biodiesel (either by using the spray function with an open vent, or recapturing through a still)
3) Transfer the remaining unwashed biodiesel into the wash tank.
4) Optional Step : add about 5 ml of acetic acid for every Liter of biodiesel and recirculate for 15 minutes. Let settle for about one hour, then drain out the settled acid and any precipitate from the bottom valve. This will precipitate out any unused KOH and will break apart any minor emulsions.
5) Measure out 1-2% magnesol based on the total weight of your biodiesel ( you can use 800g as the weight of 1L of biodiesel and figure out your amount of magnesol based on the number of liters. If your wash tank is calibrated in gallons, convert gallons to liters with the ratio 1gallon = 3.78 liters. )
6) Add the magnesol and recirculate the solution for 30 minutes. Then let settle for 24 hours.
7) Drain off the precipitate into a 5 gallon bucket. Let this goop settle for an hour, salvage the biodiesel from the top (store it to wash with your next batch), then compost the remaining goop.



8) Take a sample from the top of the wash tank of the “washed” biodiesel. Check for clarity, you should be able to read a newspaper through it. Also, do a wash test ( in a small jar add 50ml of the biodiesel, and 50ml of water, shake, wait for separation…hopefully it takes less than 10minutes. Make sure the wash water is completely clear, meaning no soap, before proceeding to the final filtering) If the biodiesel has passed both these tests. Run it through a 10micron or smaller filter at least 3 times before using. I recommend first a 20, then a 10, then a 2, while implementing a recirculation function with each filter.

For more info on Magnesol:
http://www.freshpatents.com/Purification-of-biodiesel-w...1ptan20050081436.php

(patent info and claims)

We'll get this thing figured out yet! It is simple too promising to let it go. I've talked to several people lately that are having no problems with the way it cleans and are having good success filtering it back out, but that is as far as they have gone. Once we have a few good ways to filter it back out then we need to do the opposite of my earlier post today and work on MINIMIZING the amount of soap produced.
The acetic acid looks promising in my case. If I can use it to knock my unused NaOH level down then I may be able to use in the 1%-2% range on this batch.
-Jim

Acetic Acid, aka vinegar, wiki Acetic Acid

"In the form of vinegar, acetic acid solutions (typically 5% to 18%) are used directly as a condiment, and also in the pickling of vegetables and other foodstuffs. Table vinegar tends to be more dilute (5% to 8% acetic acid), while commerical food pickling generally employs more concentrated solutions."

A fume hood is required for anything over 25%.

56% Acetic Acid in 130# pail (about 5 gallons) is $84.50 at Brenntag. Special order item.

Glacial Acetic Acid, water free, is in the low $40's for a 5 gallon pail. Special order item.

(Yes, it is odd that the more pure version is cheaper!)
(EDIT: The glacial is 44 pounds at 8.8 pounds per gallon --> 5 gallons. If the 56% is 130 pounds, that works out to about 15 gallons. Apples to Apples the 56% is about $28 per 5 gallon pail vs. Glacial at $40 per 5 gallon pail.)

I have the Certificate of Analysis coming by email soon.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Jim D,

What do you need acetic acid for? If you are using it to reduce the soap content you will be increasing the free fatty acid content.

Neutral, read the procedure listed a couple of posts up and see if you see what they are getting at. I don't know enough about the process to have caught what you just did. Is there anything else in there that will cause problems?