jim my partner in the biodiesel project is interested in doing the magnesol r60.. this week im going to go out and get another harbor freight pump and plumbing along with a 5 micron golden rod spin on fuel filter.. then ill contact you for the magnesol r60.. how can i store it?

also can i use the magnesol in my wvo to remove water or will i have to boil it off?

i dont want to have to wait a whole day for the oil to cool after boiling... though i could put the lid on and hose down the sides to cool it...

quote:

Originally posted by Jim D:

I'm the biodiesel distributor for the Dallas Group (the manufacturer). If you call them, they will give you my email address (feel free to if you want to check it out.)
I have two auctions going right now on eBay. One for a 9-pound box and one for a 50-pound bag.

.............

The other auction if for a 50 pound bag.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIte...TRK%3AMESE%3AIT&rd=1
It is $125 plus actual shipping ($2.50 per pound.)

Jim D, if you are "the biodiesel distributor" for the Dallas Group, does this mean they will not now sell to me directly the 50 lb bags at $1.43 per lb (which is what I was quoted by the sales rep)??

That's what they have told me. I never could get them down to the $1.43 on a single bag though. Best I got on a single bag was $1.50. As I said in either some earlier posts, or in a direct mail to some of the people who have bought, (forgive me for not researching it, my DSL is down and I am on dial up.) I am going to offer substantial discounts to repeat buyers once I recoup my initial outlay. (Business Licenses, website, transportation, packaging, printing MSDS's for the boxes, etc...there is more, I just can't remember right now.) They don't want to handle the small orders. (Yes, a single bag is a small order to them. Heck a pallet is a small order to them.) That is what I am for.
While I am not doing this for charity, I am also not trying to make a fortune doing it. It is a corner of my garage, best deals I can find on boxes and supplies, etc.. I am also looking a building a dump bag station in the next month or so to allow me to break the bags down into more convenient sizes without the mess that it is causing right now. Less mess and faster = lower prices. I think I can build a dump bag station for around $200 instead of buying one for $5000. The biggest problem I am running into right now is shipping to all of Canada and to the western half of the US. $40 shipping for a 50-pound bag is too much. (Anyone have any ideas on how to do this cheaper?)
I can drop the price to $1.50 pound in a 50-pound bag if I know that I am going to get enough orders to cover the initial start up expenses. I know that this is a sore spot with you, since you had been offered that price, but had trouble with the shipping. (PS, for those of you that have already bought at $2.10 per pound in the 50-pound bag I am talking about doubling down your price for the same number of bags that you ordered so that you don't get stuck with a bunch at the initial high price. In other words, if the final price ends up being $1.50 a pound, then you will end up paying $.90 ($2.10 - $1.50 = $.60. $.60 * 2 = $1.20. $2.10 - $1.20 = $.90)) I’m not saying that $1.50 is going to be what it settles out at (I still have to make up for shipping the pallets to me for me to break apart + my time), but you will not be left stuck with the initial high prices while those who buy later get better deals.
Right now I have 3/4 of my first shipment still sitting in my garage and I'm still out a bunch of money. If I knew I could sell 20 more bags at $1.50 per pound I would feel a lot better about all of this. Are there 20 more bags out there to be bought right now? I bet not until those who have bought have had time to test and report their results here for everyone to see. I will be testing soon, but now that I have a stake in this my comments are to be taken with a grain of salt. While I am honest by nature and will only report what I actually find, you don't know me from Adam. It is going to take reporting by people who don't have a stake for everyone else to have a warm fuzzy about this.
NoSmoke, if you want to cowboy up to the 20 bags, I'll drop it across the board to $1.50 per pound in a 50-pound bag. I'm open to any shipping suggestions. I'm at 37334, Fayetteville Tennessee. If you can find a deal on shipping and you need me to deliver it to a loading dock in Huntsville Alabama, you let me know.

This can work for everyone, but I don't want to get stuck holding the bag. (Or should I say the stacks of bags.)

Thanks,
Jim

"Lighten up Francis!"

I want to thank Jim D. for stepping up to the plate and taking a risk. I just got my first 100 lbs from him. I used 2 ozs--by weight-- per gallon on a 55 gal batch and the BD passed the water-shake test with flying colors. As always, filtering is the main issue that we all must deal with (and getting the meth out before adding the Mag). I use an X100 bag filter from filterbag.com and a Spinner II to filter. I know it's a more elaborate filtering sytem than average, but I am most interested in making ASTM-quality BD and doing it quickly. For all those not in such a hurry, I believe gravity and time will be a great alternative to Magnesol. Thanks Jim. You are much cheaper than Instakitchen, and my garage is free to make BD. Dave

Personally I think gravity and time should be used WITH the magnesol.

Also there exists the possiblility that the magnesol can be recycled.

From what I understand, magnesol is the magnesium salt of silicic acid.

To recycle it, simply dump the used magnesol in sulfuric acid.

The silicic acid will separate and form a gelatanous glob on top of the acid which can be skimmed off.

Magnesium hydroxide solution can be added to the acid forming magnesol.

The water is evaporated and the stuff is dried, ground and reused.

I would like to throw in a thanks to Jim D as well. He is helping us find easier ways to work our hobby.

The cost of the R60 seems high for me at the moment. I am talking about increasing the cost of my fuel by 40-60 cents. I will however probably get some in the coming weeks to try. Just to see how easy it makes the process. For those with wash water disposal problems, I could see how this would benefit you several ways.

Does anyone have a concise list on what exact filters and pumps and things needed to get a 'dry cleaning' tank setup? I would like to look at some pics and put together a cost for building the dry wash tank.

I have made about 20 30 gallon batches so far in the last three months. And this board with others has been a great source of info. You all just keep coming up with ideas.

a94cobra

about using magnesol..

how would you remove any methanol in the biodiesel? or can you determine amount needed and toss in?

You either have to boil it off like normal, or boil it off and recover it (condense the vapor.) It should boil off at about 145 deg F.

-Jim

Like others here, I tend to get confused every so often with all the info I'm trying to absorb. What I'm trying to remember is this: Earlier in this thread it was mentioned that there was a difference between magnesium silicate and magnesol and that there were two different types of magnesol. Am I remembering right? Ok, next, which do we use again? Magnesol R60, right? And why is one better than the other if it is? Anyone wanna recap me? thanks!

jim my water heater goes to 150 degrees farenheight.. would that suffice?.. also i have an open port ( not rally open) but could i fab up a condensor for that one.. we love the magnesol idea and want to get some methanol back

You are not the only one. Someone had tested some non-synthetic stuff and was having a little trouble with it. I'll let them answer that.
As for the two types of Magnesol, there is the FDA approved for human consumption XL that is used to clean fryer oil and there is the non-FDA approved R60 that the Dallas group said is specificially for use in Biodiesel.
The XL is available here:
http://www.instawares.com/Fryer-Powder-Magnesol-22-LB.2...code=WREPTEC280-1215
for $102.71 + shipping for a 22-pound box.
The R60 is available direct from me for $105 for a 50-pound bag + actual shipping. (Send your zipcode for a shipping quote.) And at http://www.FryerPower.com for $37.00 for a 9 pound box, shipping included.
-Jim

quote:

Originally posted by DonTSA:
jim my water heater goes to 150 degrees farenheight.. would that suffice?

That would do it.

quote:

.. also i have an open port ( not rally open) but could i fab up a condensor for that one.. we love the magnesol idea and want to get some methanol back

Just make sure that it eventually vents outside and that there are no leaks, just in case.
-Jim

i have the vent hood sitting above my processor... how would i go about making a condensor.. and what precautions should i take.. like turning the heating element on and just letting the fuel sit and get hot.. my temp guage ( stick on type) is on the top return line.. so would i just set the thermo to 150 and pray i dont blow up?

As far as controlling it you should recirculate while heating. Set the thermostat to 150 deg F. The boiling of the methanol will keep the liquid at 145 deg F (just like boiling water does not get above 212 deg F, sea level & standard pressure.) The temperature should level out around 145 for a while, then when it starts rising you will know that you have the methanol out.
Run your pipe outdoors and into some kind of heat exchanger. It can be as simple as running steel pipe up and down in a 55 gallon barrel. Fill the barrel with either ice water or leave the hose slowly running to keep the water cool. The end of the pipe needs to go into the collection container and be set up so that as it is sputtering and spitting the condensate out it cannot splash on anything. A cooling line that always goes down would make it a smoother discharge. PLEASE google/yahoo around and find out what you can. And as always, I am not a professional engineer. You do this at your own risk.
-Jim

originally posted by Bright Young Maverick on another thread

"Magnesol and Cloud Point Depression"

Bright Young Maverick

Member
29 September 2005 10:54 AM

Interesting thing occured this morning. The temperature outside was a lovely 35 degrees Fahrenheit. I had left three bottles of biodiesel outside from a previous test batch.

One was some water washed biodiesel (standard 3-wash, mist-bubble-bubble, spray dried), which was cloudy (as one would expect, since it was from partially hydrogenated stock)

One was unwashed, de-methanolized, same batch, also cloudy, expected.

Here's the odd part -- the last bottle was de-methanolized, but "washed" with magnesol, filtered down to 1 micron. It was NOT cloudy. Same source of oil.

Now, should magnesol lower cloudpoint?

Posts: 29 | Location: Kansas | Registered: 30 March 2003

Original Thread

Thanks to JIM D, I now have in my possession 25# of Magnasol and a free black garbage bag. How do you add the Magnasol (pour in or sprinkle on top oof the biodiesel.) How long do you pump the Magnasol around the wash tank. How long should it take the Biodiesel to get clear. Will this lower the cloud point/gel point. What type of filters is everyone using. My plan is to filter either 50/10/1 or 10/1. Should I use nominal micron filters or absolute. what type of filter housing to use. I will be making my Biodiesel tomorrow and need to collect the parts for washing. This will be my 1st attempt with Magnasol.

Ian

The documents that describe how the Iowa State University did it are linked from here:
http://www.FryerPower.com

They heated the filtered, dry, methanol free biodiesel up to 170 deg F, added the magnesol R60, and stirred for 20 minutes. If you are using an Appleseed set up you may need to pump it around for longer than that, since they don't seem to mix as vigorously as stirring. I just got my 1 micron felt filter sock in the mail today, but will not be able to test it until next weekend at the earliest. My plan is to filter through a 1 micron filter sock a couple of times to get the bulk out. Then filter through a 25 micron (absolute, b[c]=1000) fiberglass filter a couple of times, then finally through a 12 micron (absolute, b[c]=1000) fiberglass filter a couple of times. Then I am going to send a sample out to Hy-Pro Filtration (http://www.filterelement.com) for them to patch test it and give me an ISO cleanliness rating of my final product. I'm also going to get some samples up to a local university to get a Gas Cromatagraph test done. (That will take longer.) According to the documents from the Dallas Group, magnesol R60 does not seem to help or hurt the cloud point. There was a post earlier about a sample not clouding at 35 deg F when one washed with water and then air dried did cloud. We should all watch for this in our tests. That would be cool! My fiberglass filters are rated for high temperature lube oil, so they can handle 170 deg F with no problems. I don't know about the felt socks. If you are using the plastic household water filter housings, I think they are only rated to 100 deg F. As far as nominal/absolute, a few days back I posted a long one about what the differance was between the ratings. Page back and take a look, this post is already too long as it is. If you let the mixture settle while it cools down to 100 deg F you should be able to skip the sock filter, as long as you don't stir up the settled magnesol. 10/1 should be fine.
The more I see everyone posting about using the 1 micron household water filter for the final filter, the more it makes me want to try it. I think I'll send a sample as listed above, and then run the rest through a 1 micron water filter and send a sample of it out for patch testing also. That way they are from the same batch and we can compare apples to apples.
-Jim

OK I looked at the filters that were on that web page, but I still do not know what to buy. I want 2 in-line filters in my wash loop, but I want to go cheap (or as cheap as possible.) I need some help (pictures if possible) of filter housings and where to put them.

Ian

You are not going to find cheap on that website. $70 for a filter head and one spin on filter canister. Don't get me wrong, you get what you pay for. 3/4 inch in and out ports, 1/8 inch plug to put in a pressure gauge, double length can (8+ inches), fiberglass media that is absolute rated at the microns size it removes. If you are looking to go on the cheap, look at Tractor Supply Company http://www.mytscstore.com/default.asp or a store like that. Maybe an automotive shop. Look for a nominal 10 micron filter or better for the final filter. Nominal normally means b[c]=2 (1000 particles go in, 500 make it through). The Absolute rated filters by Hy-Pro are b[c]=1000 (1000 particles go in, 1 makes it through). If you find a 5 micron nominal filter, it may do a really go job of getting out 10 micron or 15 micron particles, not so hot at 5 microns. I would go barrel to barrel through a sock filter to get the bulk out. Transfer from one barrel to the other a couple of times. This will get most of the particles out. Then go barrel to barrel through your 10 micron nominal filter a couple of times. Then go barrel to barrel through your 1 micron nominal filter a couple of times. It may be overkill, but at least the fuel will be clean.
-Jim
(I really want to set up and test now, but my flight leaves at 10:18 in the morning tomorrow. It will have to wait for next week.)

Here is what I would do to filter the BD with magnesol...

Take the magnesol, and stir it up in a drum for 1 hour and let settle for 24 hours.

Pump into another drum thru a 10 micron filter bag... leaving as much of the settled magnesol as possible on the bottom.

Then recirculate thru a 1 micron filter bag until clear.

If you do it this way, gravity will save you a ton of money on filters.