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Hi Stuart,

Thanks.


[ edit 20 June 06 - Driving off methanol by distillation seems to be the preferred method- it minimises release of methanol into the environment - GL]

I'm on the lookout for some clip-on lidded tanks now, my lash-up used a piece of plywood cut to fit the lid, with rubber hose acting as a gasket. Rough as heck, but proved a point. You do need to get inside the drum afterwards to clean it out.

I've just cleaned out the 2nd batch, and there was only a thin layer of soap at the bottom. I used a brush on a stick to loosen it, and old newspapers to wipe it all clean. Nice and shiny again.

The conclusion : 5% prewash = ADVISABLE


Rover 75 + Skoda Fabia on B100
http://www.graham-laming.com
Bicycle on G100 12,000 miles p.a. ( http://tinyurl.com/krppyc )
 
Location: UK | Registered: 04 December 2005Edit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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I'm wondering if you could run the vented fumes directly into a condenser and recover some of the methanol, then vent the recovery tank outdoors. Doesn't seem like to much extra work, but the condenser might restrict the air/fume flow too much.


-Greg

2003 Ford F250 7.3 PSD - B100
1999 Mercedes E300DT - B100
 
Location: Arizona | Registered: 15 May 2006Edit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Graham, are you going to start a new thread? I think if we took a couple of the previous posts and pasted them together, we could start a new thread that made sense to new readers and continued the discussion.

Are you also recommending use 5% (five percent of the total volume of the batch in water to wash) wash prior to the new Airwash we have been discussing?


Stuart Shellenberger
www.fusionbiodiesel.com
Fusion Biodiesel,LLC
Authorized AGR Energy Dealer
Mesa, AZ
BioPro380----Oh Ya BABY!
 
Location: Mesa, AZ | Registered: 17 June 2005Edit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Hi Stuart,

Yes, I'll start a new thread. I think it makes sense to condense all the conclusions and key steps together in a more managable size, with pictures to illustrate.

I'm just going thru all the material and picking out the key points, writing it all down on paper first.

The 5% water is added to the processor right at the end of the reaction and mixed in for 15 minutes or so inside the processor vessel.

Then the pump is stopped, the glycerol layer allowed to settle and is removed (which now contains most of that water)

Only then, the biodiesel is moved to the AirWash process. Seems to give better conversion and less soaps are transferred across.

Regards,


Rover 75 + Skoda Fabia on B100
http://www.graham-laming.com
Bicycle on G100 12,000 miles p.a. ( http://tinyurl.com/krppyc )
 
Location: UK | Registered: 04 December 2005Edit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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I'm guessing that the 5% water wash is delivered via mist heads?


Stuart Shellenberger
www.fusionbiodiesel.com
Fusion Biodiesel,LLC
Authorized AGR Energy Dealer
Mesa, AZ
BioPro380----Oh Ya BABY!
 
Location: Mesa, AZ | Registered: 17 June 2005Edit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Hi Stuart,

No, not at all.

Inject it into the methanol dosing line. I just add 4 litres of water to my methanol carboy and it cleans that out at the same time.

Use the circulating pump to mix it all up thoroughly.

Many folks worry about this causing an emulsion - no chance - there's so much glycerol still in the system an emulsion hasn't got a chance of forming.


Rover 75 + Skoda Fabia on B100
http://www.graham-laming.com
Bicycle on G100 12,000 miles p.a. ( http://tinyurl.com/krppyc )
 
Location: UK | Registered: 04 December 2005Edit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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my only suggstion would be to deal with the methanol fumes/ methanol recovery in a seperate new thread than the air wash/soap recovery thread

to minimize some of the confusion

Higgins
 
Registered: 06 July 2005Edit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Excellent suggestion - I'll keep to the washing side only.

I've just seen George Reiswig has started a 'Handling Methanol Fumes' thread here

so we're all set!


Rover 75 + Skoda Fabia on B100
http://www.graham-laming.com
Bicycle on G100 12,000 miles p.a. ( http://tinyurl.com/krppyc )
 
Location: UK | Registered: 04 December 2005Edit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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This thread is now closed and has been moved here


Rover 75 + Skoda Fabia on B100
http://www.graham-laming.com
Bicycle on G100 12,000 miles p.a. ( http://tinyurl.com/krppyc )
 
Location: UK | Registered: 04 December 2005Edit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Has anyone determined about how much methanol remains in the BD layer following removal of the glycerol layer? This would depend to some extent on how much methanol was used in the orginal reaction but most people use about 20% methanol to initial used cooking oil. It would also be interesting to know approximately how much methanol and soap are removed in the glycerol layer. Again it would depend on various factors such as whether a pre-wash is used, initial % FFA etc.
quote:
Originally posted by GrahamLaming:
Hi folks

This method should allow you to use less (possibly nil - edit 13 June 06) water in washing, and seems to make washing less prone to emulsions, as it allows you to scoop off much of the soap before the wash stage. Introduces no extra chemicals or materials. (I run a 5% prewash in the processor).

Must be done in a well ventilated area.

1. Empty your freshly reacted, raw BD into your wash tank, but DO NOT add water yet. Also 1/2 fill a Clear plastic bottle with some of this brew to compare with the end result.

3. Lower an air bubbler into the BD. I had my bubbler in the centre of the tank, like this...





4. Bubble air thru the BD for 24 hours. This does several useful things...

1. It helps evaporate and thus eliminate methanol.
2. The reduced methanol concentration reduces the amount of soap the BD can hold.
3. The liberated soap picks up air bubbles and floats to the surface as a thick scum.

[ Comment added 18 June 2006: Much of the soap also drops to the bottom of the tank. I'd suggest if you want to do a water wash after this process, do it in a separate tank, to avoid dissolving the settled soap in your wash water ]

So you end with with separated soap...




And now you can easily scoop off the soap with a sieve ...




Keep going until your soap scum recovery level reduces to negligible amounts.

Take another plastic drink bottle and 1/2 fill it with this soap-reduced BD.

Now do a gentle wash test on your 2 samples and you'll see the bubble processed BD has much better wash handling properties and of course less soap.

I bubbled at 50 degrees C in the beginning, straight out of the reactor tank, and let it cool down naturally to around 15 degrees C. A warmed tank would probably be better, maintaining a higher methanol evap. rate.

A recirculating pump thru a filter may further improve soap yield after the bulk has been removed manually. No idea what filter size would be best, but I guess it would need to be a bag filter to have enough capacity for the soap. At least bag filters are easy to wash out.

You can then wash your soap-reduced batch, with much reduced risk of emulsification and less water usage.

[ Comment added 18 June 2006: Much of the soap also drops to the bottom of the tank. I'd suggest if you want to do a water wash after this process, do it in a separate tank, to avoid dissolving the settled soap in your wash water ]
 
Registered: 23 March 2004Edit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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well ive filtering to 1 micron the bio i have made and it looks crystal clear i made it potassium but on a wash test with cold water the ph level of the water went up, im going to try sodium and see if i get the same result the bio was filtered for 2hrs through a 1 micron fiter

plugly


If it aint Perfect I dont want to know.
 
Location: Shropshire | Registered: 02 May 2006Edit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Oops!
This thread is now closed. The thread has been moved here


Rover 75 + Skoda Fabia on B100
http://www.graham-laming.com
Bicycle on G100 12,000 miles p.a. ( http://tinyurl.com/krppyc )
 
Location: UK | Registered: 04 December 2005Edit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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I"ll close it so people cant post more replies if you want

Mark
 
Location: Pittsboro, North Carolina | Registered: 07 March 2001Edit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Thanks GM - much obliged.


Rover 75 + Skoda Fabia on B100
http://www.graham-laming.com
Bicycle on G100 12,000 miles p.a. ( http://tinyurl.com/krppyc )
 
Location: UK | Registered: 04 December 2005Edit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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