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Member |
This is more than just cooked oil...
But, breaking bonds (one would assume). I.E. ignoring the carboxylic acids... if you had a saturated oil. For example, chain of 14 carbons, CH3CH2CH2CH2CH2CH2CH2CH2CH2CH2CH2CH2CH2CH3 Breaking it into two chains of 7 carbons each. CH3CH2CH2CH2CH2CH2CH3 + CH3CH2CH2CH2CH2CH2CH3 Note, of course, if this is a saturated compound, you end up with 2 extra hydrogens... These "extra hydrogens" can come from a number of sources. One would be from desaturating the chain, or some of the chains, even to an extreme to give something like diamonds/graphite, or what is called "biochar". The other source would be to add water or something which probably donates hydrogen, and produces some carbon dioxide, but also may aid with the "cracking" process. Now, back to the triglycerides and carboxylic acids... Apparently they are not disappearing in the process... in fact, you may be right that the triglycerides which are technically neutral are being broken down into free fatty acids in the process. If that is the case, Then some of the same techniques that are used for washing biodiesel should also be able to be used for washing this bio-oil, or Biodisel-2.0, or whatever you wish to call it. |
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Thanks keelec for the detailed explanation. Without the invention of the Internet, sleeping trough chemistry class would have killed me by now.
My main concern with his process is this;
From an engineering prospective I would have issues placing any type of heating element into a pressurized drum of oil that's being heated and vaporized well above it's flash point. An over pressure situation with a slight touch of O2 and you have just invented a 55 gallon combustion chamber. Glow plug included... I once lit off a heating element in a empty BD reactor made from a closed top steel drum. Before it could vent, it turned into the shape of a football. That was just residual vapors but the results were conclusive. |
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Kenr34,
I'm not as worried about the heating elements. There isn't any methanol, so it's not as 'explosive-ready' as with biodiesel. You raise another point. He said he uses RTV glue, & it gets into the 700+ F temperature. See http://www.accessconnect.com/gasket_maker.htm , RTV glues are in the 450- 700F upper limit. And if it's against the heating element, you can add another 50-100F to the fluid upper limit. Here's an interesting twist I just thought of. Rather than heating a barrel's worth with some risky components, could you heat a liter or gallon of liquid, and vaporize a smaller volume. You could reduce the risk by dealing with a much smaller volume at a given time. Picture something like a continuous flow setup. Just a couple of random thoughts... -tony |
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It really doesn't matter if there is no methanol, the gas created by flashing the oil is plenty capable of rapid oxidazition causing conflagaration given a little oxygen.
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But given the low pressure of 5psi and the temperature would there be enough of the right conditions there to actually start fractioning hydro carbon chains?
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i'll be posting on my site all the results from here on out. I have made some more drastic changes and have got some crazy results today.
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akford6,
So will these results get posted in the free part of your site, or on the $20 access fee area? -tony |
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Figures. Regards, Keith "The government is not best which secures mere life and property--there is a more valuable thing--manhood." - Mark Twain's Notebook 2004 GMC Duramax 6.6 LLY now on B100 "Applejuice" |
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this sounds like a variant of the Fischer-Trospsch process used at the Leuna synthetic gasoline plant in Germany before and during WWII. This process is extremely hazardous to the health of the plant staff.
Biogator '87 Mercedes-Benz 300D "Janis" Cub Cadet 7260 tractor |
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Next thing... someone will try this with the glycerin byproduct...
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I have a friend with a working prototype pyrolysis unit on his farm. I ask if glycerin would help or hurt the process. Waiting to hear what the designer of the system has to say. One thing I know, water in the feed stock is not good. |
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Pure glycerin is a short chain hydrocarbon & alcohol. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycerol C3H5(OH)3  I doubt that pyrolysis of glycerin would create a long-chain hydrocarbon such as could be used as a diesel fuel substitute. However, biodiesel glycerin is a mixture with salts, free fatty acids, soap, etc. If you are lucky, you might get some alcohols and short chain hydrocarbons out of pyrolysis of pure glycerin. Or, you could end up with a mess. Spiking your veggie oil with glycerin probably won't make a big difference, and will probably produce more short chain hydrocarbons. But, as with everything, it never hurts to try empirical testing. Keep in mind the Boiling Point of glycerin is 554 Degrees F. |
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I would have to express a certain amount of concern over the safety of this process compared with making biodiesel.
It is not an automatic slam-dunk that this is safer. If you get oxygen introduced into your pyrolysis vessel or column, this could be explosively bad. If your element does not stay immersed, it could also provide an ignition point if there is enough 02 around to get you into the combustible mixture range. Approach with caution. troy |
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Of course if there was 02 but even with leaks there is never enough oxygen in the vessel to provide an ignition. We run the elements until the oil stops coming out.
I have some more details for you and many more pictures and such on my site. hhoforlife.com |
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Really? How much oxygen would cause an ignition, and how do you measure it? |
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Are you for real?
this isn't biodiesel it's gasoil and i stopped posting on alaskabiodiesel a long time ago because it was a waste of time. I never received one intelligent tip. On this forum I have received dozens of helpful tips and this website has been a huge help to my final project. I have many pictures to post on my site hhoforlife.com and will be doing so today in hopes of receiving a few more donations. I'm not in this to make money but rather to prove a point in alaska. That is we don't have to just bend over and take it in the rear everytime we get our gas and electric bills. There are alternatives. |
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Well you did post this in the "Making Biodiesel" forum, so you got what you got. We like biodiesel; it's a known quantity. "Gasoil" is obviously something different, so you have the burden of proof.
'05 CRD B100 '01 TDi B100 '83 240D B100  |
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All gasses have an LEL and UEL. If you have less gas than the LEL, or more than the UEL, then it is not explosive, although I presume that by messing around with the temperature and pressure, you could cause a reaction of some sort. I assume that once you get the reaction going, you will quickly exceed the UEL, and be pretty safe from creating an explosive environment within the reactor. I don't quite follow where an oxygen leak would come into play in a pressurized system. Perhaps in the condenser? Probably the most danger with the reactor is in the first few minutes after bringing the system up to temperature. What kind of a reactor vessel is being used? Propane Tank? Steam Boiler? Paint Sprayer? Oxygen Cylinder? Air Compressor Tank? I'm not sure I'd be comfortable bringing a 55 gallon barrel up to 500+ degrees, and pressurizing it. It certainly would not hurt to purge the system with Argon or CO2 before firing it up. |
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absolutely our first test was with a barrel but like you said for the first few minutes were you have plenty of acellerant and Propellant if one of my elements became unsubmersed and then sparked it could cause a mild explosion. So I have switched to a 4041 chro-moly tank. Or compressed Nitrogen 116lb tank. I tapped 1/2" threads into it. I'm using schedule 120 pipe now. I wanted it to be explosion proof. Everything has been working great so far until yesterday we realized the limelife heating elements we chose are just not a low enough watt density for this application. We burned out two and are now contacting a few suppliers for a 4500 watt element with a 1" pipe thread for 240 single phase that has a rated still air temperature of 800 degrees this would give us a self limiting element.
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