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Should prob use some of that 8000 dollars for better hosting service.

quote:

Originally posted by paulb3:
Should prob use some of that 8000 dollars for better hosting service.

Hey bro, how's things in paradise?

akford6.4wvo,

This is an open forum where people have joined to share ideas... and sometimes use each other as sounding boards.
If you believe you have a patentable invention, then I'd encourage getting a patent before discussing the "invention" in an open forum.

However, I would also encourage doing an exhaustive literature search before trying to apply for a patent on something that has been around since the 1940's, if not earlier.

Have you ever done any research into what has been dubbed "bio-oil" by others?

There is a lot of discussion on the WWW about production the production of bio-oil from various feedstocks including plant oils.

I'd encourage looking up on the web: "Pyrolysis of vegetable Oil"

Here is an excellent research article about Vegetable Oil Pyrolysis written in 2003.
www.biodiesel.gov.br/docs/JAAP.pdf
Wow... even a journal called "Journal of Analytical and Applied Pyrolysis".

As part of the research article, they cited a literature review:

quote:

The pyrolysis of different triglycerides was used for fuel supply in different countries
during the First and Second World Wars. For instance, a Tung oil pyrolysis batch system
was used in China as a hydrocarbon supply during World War II [4]. These hydrocarbons
were used as raw materials for gasoline and diesel-like fuel production in a cracking system
similar to the petroleum process now used. Since then several studies on vegetal oil pyrolysis
as an alternative method to obtain chemicals and fuels have been reported in the literature
[5–9]. Pyrolysis, assisted by solid catalysts, has also been reported and it was recognized that
the product selectivity is strongly affected by the presence and the nature of heterogeneous
catalysts, as well as the presence of water steam and gas feed [10–12].

Here is a recent discussion of pyrolysis on this website:
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/ev...831055282#9831055282

There have also been discussions about using other feedstocks including discussions about using a byproduct "biochar" as a fertilizer. I heard a story about biooil and biochar on NPR recently, although I think the biochar thing is more hype than anything else. However, I suppose if you remove all the hydrogens from a carbon chain, you are left with essentially graphite or diamond which are poorly metabolized by bio-organisms.

Oh, there is even a wikipedia article that discusses bio-oil.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biochar

This doesn't mean that there can't be new research in the field of pyrolysis and bio-oil. And, it is certainly possible to come up with a new and unique method of making it... to improve efficiencies of either the oils produced, the quality of the oils, or something. However coming up with a new name for an old product will not constitute a new, patentable product.

Hmmm... has anybody developed "New Coke" yet?.... oh, you mean that one already flopped?

These guys here use microwaves to crack hydrocarbons from any source.

quote:

Originally posted by akford6.4wvo:
you will need to register as a member to see most of the good boards. There is a reason we get more than 700 people a day to my website. Over 100 members. Over 8000 dollars in donations.

Dude,
Just to raise your awareness level a notch or two, here's some free information for ya.

This forum is filled with some really intelligent people. Its not the usual jack-*** crowd you run into on other internet forums. This particular one has a whole variety of extremely smart folks who come from a wide range of background specialties.

In short, this place is like a multi-dimensional bull$hit detector on steroids and your postings are making all the bells and whistles go off.

If you want to get past that, you have to come up with some real info.

quote:

Originally posted by Murphy:

In short, this place is like a multi-dimensional bull$hit detector on steroids and your postings are making all the bells and whistles go off.

That's one of the funniest, and most accurate, posts I have read in a long time.

While reading it over breakfast my head launched backwards from the force of the spontaneous ignition of its coffee fueled twin nostril rockets.

I tried the new link several times. Still not working.

If it's pyrolysis, why didn't you just say so. That's not really biodiesel, but is a legitimate pursuit in its own right.

What's your throughput efficiency? Do you get much more than 65% V/V? What do you do with the byproducts, b/c there are usually a bunch. Does it make a bunch of stinky smokey volatiles?

I'm not being a smart ass, I really want to know. If I'm guessing right, you might be the first guy who is actually doing this and posting on this discussion group. All by itself, that's a pretty rare thing. Hey, we'll even help you.

This is all about the open and free exchange of ideas. If it's legitimate, you can even sell stuff on here. We're not opposed to seeing you make a little money if you have a worthwhile product.

We will be a little demanding to see data before we jump on the bandwagon and get totally convinced this is the next great thing.

Please carry on.

troy

quote:

Originally posted by fabricator:
Hey bro, how's things in paradise?

Going pretty well weather is going between sunshine and down pour.

quote:

Originally posted by Murphy:
In short, this place is like a multi-dimensional bull$hit detector on steroids and your postings are making all the bells and whistles go off.

Damn thats a good line think I will use it as my sig for a bit

quote:

Originally posted by akford6.4wvo:

on another note if hho can't give us overunity which i believe it can't.
But hho is rated by a btu rating while ambiently burning at 274 degrees Fahrenheit although it's dynamic and if you use the same unit of fuel to achieve 1150 degrees Fahrenheit isn't it more efficient than when it was measured burning at 274 degrees? Just some food for thought.
Also a gentlemen in Thailand just invented the car that uses an electrolysis's system to run the car only on hho. I have two witnesses on my website that actually flew there and seen it.

Whoops! I thought you said "HHO" can't do over-unity, but if you actually believe your Thai friend, you contradicted yourself in the same paragraph.

Finally I got ahold of the brains around this forum. Thank you for posting some intelligent posts everyone. This is what I want. Patenting something doesn't have to be the process. But can be the style your doing it or the machine you made to get it. So far my unit has produced about 80 percent out than what was put in. (fluid that is) which is pretty good. I have not tried to see how much i get out over an hour or time testing this unit. I am remaking this unit and i'll give you a parts list and everything. This fluid i'm making is called gasoil it's a specialty molecule in it's own. Yes this is a form of pyrolysis but i mean it's so dang easy why not do this all the time. Saves a ton of hassle. I have been making bio diesel, blends, and just straight vo conversions in my power strokes and generators for a while now and that was great I loved the discount. However with work and family life i knew there had to be a easier way and without having lye around and methanol for my lil girl to get into.

I'm going to be revising this method today and i'll post pics and such. btw sorry about the link everyone

If you just goto my site hhoforlife.com and click on diesel fuels, alternative diesel ideas, breakthrough you'll see it all. Not sure why the link didn't work. Anyways you will need to register takes like 2 minutes if that.

On another note i have been looking into microwave but one thing you have to remember is efficiency. Electric elements are 99 percent efficient now days. Microwave heating uses some of the power to put heat into this unit. Not beneficial to me. I have thought about induction heating with my induction furnace supply but it's just not efficient. The most efficient method i have found so far was electric water heater elements (fire dry capable) as they burn the oil without having to heat the whole container. 4500 watt modules are so powerful that they instantly start burning the oil into vapor and then eventually get the whole container turning to vapor within 30 minutes. Once at temperature I was getting about 2 gallons of fuel about every 10 minutes.

My generator burns .67 gallons an hour performing this process. So it's quite efficient considering the generator is running on wvo.

Guys,

I registered over there. Below is the two parts of the text of what he wrote. The one interesting factor is that the gasoil does not solidify at cold temperatures, an issue with Biodiesel. Also, he talks about mixing WVO & water, but doesn't talk about what ratio to use. The short version: put WVO & water in a sealed barrel, with pressure gauge & copper pipe off the top. Run copper pipe through a condenser (38 ft in a barrel of water), and just collect the gasoil out the end of the pipe. Minor detail, he heats to 700F. Initial thought there is wondering how this could be 'safer' than dealing with a few chemicals (with a propane turkey burner under the barrel at 700F?)? Easily argued either way. It'd be interesting to find out how well engines take this over the long haul. Interesting work, if nothing else. Read for yourselves...


O.k gas oil is the workings of this project. We want to make gas oil.


So how do you make gas oil?

Well it's made with standard biomass techniques.

first off this experiment consisted of a 55 gallon steel drum.
a turkey fryer.
50 feet of copper tubing
a steel barrel with a removable top
various brass reducers and compression fittings.
a 0-30psi pressure gauge.



first off we fitted a sealed steel drum with a reducer in the 3/4" bung hole. Fitted a tee to that and attached a pressure gauge to the top of the tee.
Second we attached a compression fitting to the tee and compression fitted a 3/8" copper tube 50' long to that and ran it outside of our work area to a drum filled with water outside. About 38 feet of copper was actually inside of the barrel of water. The end of the copper was routed outside of the barrel of water and into a 5 gallon container.
third we put 3 gallons of used cooking oil, the water and fries no decantation was done or filtering to the wvo before pouring it into the sealed steel drum on the turkey fryer burner *note the turkey fryer was reinforced with welded steel legs*.
Sealed the 2" bung back into the barrel and began to heat the barrel.
First the water came out and began pouring into the container. (it's the liquid that comes off at the lowest temperature)
After 20 minutes more the oil inside begins to reach the 550 degrees needed to burn the oil. This "burning" is actually the oil turning to a vapor this is great it's what we want. We now began to see the pressure gauge coming up. After 2 batches of doing this we realized the best pressure for this setup was 5 psi when the gas oil seemed to be pouring out the end of the 3/8" copper tubing into the container.
Only about 80 percent of the fluid we put in came out as gas oil.
After taking several samples labeling them and putting them in our deep freezer which was at -10 degrees Fahrenheit.
We seen that the water at the bottom of the sample froze but the gas oil on top did not.
The gas oil is very aromatic and tends to burn the eyes like a diesel additive from power service that boosts cetane.
We added nothing to the gas oil after distillation.
Liptis testing showed great results from the gas oil vs fuel oil.
A knock test showed smoother and quicker starting.
ASTM results showed a 55 cetane value vs a 41-45 from our local fuel suppliers. Sulfur was .002 vs .2 from local suppliers.
Lubricity results were about the same. Viscosity test showed only .01 percent better lubricity than diesel. But this could differ according to the type of WVO. Ours was Pure canola and the second batch was blended corn,cottonseed oil.

I believe if we re ran the gas oil through the distillation process we would have ended up with a equivalent to gasoline. Because we would have removed even more hydrocarbons from the molecule we currently have.
Further testing will tell.


day two:
I have no way to test the little bit of gas that I believe i have made but it burns quickly I have compared burn rates of the gas oil vs diesel and so i decided to do the same here with regular unleaded to this new product. Both seem to burn just as quickly and clean. I will run them in a gasoline engine side by side and listen to the difference see if there are deposits left on the valves, exhause, piston and head after running it for several hours. I'll document everything when i get time but i'm doing this out of pocket for the time being. If i had more vegetable oil and money I would produce more results. I'm broke for now. Back to work.

With a followup post:

y the way the above sample is a final test product. It's what ran out of the end of the copper tubing and into my container. The chamber pressure was at 5psi gas temperatures exceeding 725 degress (vapor temp) but the oil temp was a mere 550 - 600. Easy to obtain with fire on the barrel. Our new distiller now uses two 4500 watt run dry water heater elements rtv glued and bolted into a new barrel. We power this 9kw heater with our 10k genset running on wvo. This worked much quicker because with a 4500 watt element the wvo turns to vapor instantly when it touches it without having to heat the whole barrel of oil.

The water seems to be saturated with some chemical (further testing needed) but it burns very poorly but does seem to burn with a propane torch lighting it. Potent stuff.

Biodiesel is specifically methyl-esters. Making "gasoil" via pyrolysis is not biodiesel, so let's please not confuse them.

Have you measured your fuel's properties? I'm very interested in the viscosity, cetane number, and temperature performance.

Edit: sorry I missed Tony's quotation...55 cetane, low viscosity, temperature performance better than bio, very nice.

I havent been to his site, but it seems quite similar to cracking the hydrocarbons like they do with dino oil. He may be onto something here. Once set up, I wonder what the per gallon cost is

I would be most concerned about the acids it contains. From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biochar

Bio-oil contains organic acids which are corrosive to steel containers, has a high water vapor content which is detrimental to ignition, and, unless carefully cleaned, contains some biochar particles which can block injectors.

Akford6,

First, can you be a bit more specific about the WVO water mixture. How much of each (you said 3 gallons of WVO), & do you just pour in or mix them? Also, you said at first you get water out. We all know that diesel engines hate water, so how do you separate the initial water from any water in the later gasoil? And, if the gasoil has some water in it, how do you get that water out?

Finally, a bit of reliability questions. How many miles have you driven on this fuel, & what vehicle? I've seen many 'processes' that seem to work, but over time can severely damage an engine. And that's all the more significant with the new diesel engines here in the USA, they are very prone to sensor malfunctions with biodiesel.

As you can see with the past few posts, we're not here as a bunch of whiners. If you don't know an answer, just say so, same if you'd rather not answer it. We're all here to educate one another, we don't 'advance' ourselves by pushing down on others.

We look forward to hearing more details from you.
Thanks
-tony

quote:

Dude,
Just to raise your awareness level a notch or two, here's some free information for ya.

This forum is filled with some really intelligent people. Its not the usual jack-*** crowd you run into on other internet forums. This particular one has a whole variety of extremely smart folks who come from a wide range of background specialties.

In short, this place is like a multi-dimensional bull$hit detector on steroids and your postings are making all the bells and whistles go off.

If you want to get past that, you have to come up with some real info.


www.MurphysMachines.Com
The best Do-it-Yourself Construction Plans on the Internet!
Waste Oil Heating - Biodiesel Systems

ohhh my sides hurt.
Jon

akford6,

One more question, why just put 3 gallons of WVO into the barrel? It's a 55 gallon barrel, right? OK, you don't want to put 50 gallons into it & boil over the WVO/water into the condensing tube. But I would think you could safely fill it 50%, maybe 2/3rd full & not get boil over. Of course, that depends on how much water you're adding.

BTW, JohnGalt, it looks like he's vaporizing the gasoil. Int theory, all your contaminants are not vaporized so they are left behind in the barrel. Now, before others throw rotten eggs at me, I'm not saying that 'theory' lives at my house. But I would suspect that a bare minimal amount of larger particles would make it up to the condensor pipe.

Now, I'm curious as to what the remnant 'stuff' left in the barrel are. Liquid, solid, destroys the barrel, usable in any way? I personally take my waste glycerin from biodiesel production & feed it to my cattle, maybe this stuff is similar? Just curious.
-tony

I believe the OP is refering to no PRE filtering of oil.

A couple of comments....

quote:

This fluid i'm making is called gasoil it's a specialty molecule in it's own

I was impressed that your fluid was pretty clear. I've seen that others have made pretty black fluids.

However, keep in mind that the products of pyrolysis is not a single molecule or compound, but rather a mix of many different compounds.

I think you mentioned that some of it had a pretty nasty odor. I don't remember the exact phrase. But, that means you likely have both short chain and long chain hydrocarbons. Your Diesel engine should chew up either one just fine. In fact, rather than running the system twice to make smaller molecules, you would likely do better doing a better job at fractional distillation.

Here is a fractional distillation tower planted on top of an electric kiln (for ceramics) that another entrepreneur is making. The idea would be to separate out all the small molecules, gasses for example (methane,ethane,propane,butane, etc) and reuse them for your local energy source. Also separate out the medium chain hydrocarbons (octane, for example) for gasoline, and the longer chain hydrocarbons for diesel use.

http://www.renewablefuelproducts.com/technology.html


My second thought...
Keep in mind that there are 2 parts of your efficiency equation.

First - how much of the oil/organic matter that you put in comes back out as usable fuel.

Second - how much energy to you add to the system to make this happen. You said that you are using a Diesel Generator to convert liquid fuel to electricity, that you are then feeding back into the system to produce your fuel. This isn't particularly efficient, but would be easy for prototyping... and would also give you an idea of how much fuel you are using...

I would encourage building some kind of a fuel byproduct based burner to heat the system. For example, as mentioned, if you have light volatiles (methane, ethane, propane, butane, etc). They won't really add much to your fuel, and are difficult to deal with. Go ahead and just burn them up in the pyrolysis/distillation process, or, of course, use them as part of your household cooking/heating.

Nonetheless, you have to consider however much fuel you are using to power your system as part of the efficiency picture...

----

What you will likely find is that while your process is using less methanol and less caustic soda than making biodiesel, however, the entire system efficiency might be low enough that it would not be particularly efficient to use for the majority of processing... unless you find other fuel sources such as cellulose, straw, wood, etc... that can't be used for making biodiesel. And, then using alternative fuel sources would compliment the biodiesel quite well.