Hi
I have seen something what the call the Hoffmansche aperatus. It is an invention that where a certain direct voltage is aplied to two electrodes plus and minus.
This machine us producing hydrogen out of water.
I hear BMW ist actually already testing cars that will run on eiterh gasoline or hydrogen.
Is anyone here that has more knowledge than I do.
There was onec a fellow named Dingel in Korea that ran his toyota truck on hydrogen.
Greetings from Germany

H

http://groups.msn.com/Pinzgauerdiscussiongroup/homepage

As I recall it uses the same principal as the new range of cars being produced by Yugo which grounds both poles of the battery.

This clever manipulation of the battery substantially reduces the inherent reluctance of the electrons to fill blank holes on the positive side of the battery. This stimulates a massive conventional current flow from positive to negative, while at the same instant electrons are flowing form negative to positive.

These diametrically opposed flows set up conter-rotating magnetic fields in the Beat Frequency Oscilator (BFO) while at the same instant reduces the impedance in the Magnatron to less than 26 mili mohs. As most people know, when these two conditions are perfectly matched as they appear to be in this case, huge amounts of energy are created when the circut reaches "Criticality" and at the same time a fairly intense smoke field is created in the vacinity of the main fuse box.

Now that I think of it, it all fits perfectly into place.

Tilly SBC/IBA True Believer Div

[This message was edited by Tilly on 05 May 2003 at 07:54 AM.]

I read the first couple of lines of your post and thought "Yugo - all they ever did was catch fire!".

And then it all became clear. Or at least slightly hazy in a smoke filled kind of way.

H

http://groups.msn.com/Pinzgauerdiscussiongroup/homepage

Tilly SBC/IBA

Doesn't look good for hydrogen:

http://einstein.unh.edu/~msbriggs/biodiesel/biodiesel_versus_hydrogen.htm

http://einstein.unh.edu/~msbriggs/biodiesel/cars_on_different_fuels.htm

Good reading.

Thank you.

H

http://groups.msn.com/Pinzgauerdiscussiongroup/homepage

I just signed in to look what was here, but I know of two cars that are not fuelcells that run on just water. They are efficient hydrogen generators, the one fellow has been silenced,he died of food poisoning a month after he refused to sell his invention to the saudis The other was on nbc news 2 fridays ago. I believe he is in taiwan. There is yet a third fellow in the phillipines, I am not sure he is for real though. The other two men have very nice products but haven't been able to go to production. I would like to know why. I myself just installed a hydrogen generator in my 7.3 Excursion, and the truck is running great. I do not have exact mileage numbers yet, but I can see so far that I have a definite increase in mileage. My father has been dabbling with hydrogen purchased from the welding supply places. he has removed the carburator from his tractor used plumbers putty and ran a small tube directly into the motor. The tractor runs fine. The problem is where do you put the tank, and where do you convieniently refuel. However, the current at the current price of hydrogen, and diesel, he thinks he is better off with hydrogen. We are tinkerers though, this hydrogenerator thing is very interesting, and it definetly works.

quote:

Originally posted by doug green:
I just signed in to look what was here, but I know of two cars that are not fuelcells that run on just water. They are efficient hydrogen generators, the one fellow has been silenced,he died of food poisoning a month after he refused to sell his invention to the saudis The other was on nbc news 2 fridays ago. I believe he is in taiwan. There is yet a third fellow in the phillipines, I am not sure he is for real though. The other two men have very nice products but haven't been able to go to production. I would like to know why. I myself just installed a hydrogen generator in my 7.3 Excursion, and the truck is running great. I do not have exact mileage numbers yet, but I can see so far that I have a definite increase in mileage. My father has been dabbling with hydrogen purchased from the welding supply places. he has removed the carburator from his tractor used plumbers putty and ran a small tube directly into the motor. The tractor runs fine. The problem is where do you put the tank, and where do you convieniently refuel. However, the current at the current price of hydrogen, and diesel, he thinks he is better off with hydrogen. We are tinkerers though, this hydrogenerator thing is very interesting, and it definetly works.

You should be careful even talking about this stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by UFO:
You should be careful even talking about this stuff.

Yes, it is highly inflammatory!


Anyway, to answer Iser's original question, no, not in the near future.

H2 cars is a pipe dream. Truth is, the world will continue along like it has, fueled by diesel and gasoline but from natural gas, coal and heavy oil, which the world has hundreds of year's supply.

Hydrogen isn't an energy source, it's merely another form of energy storage battery, and not a very good one at that.

quote:

Hydrogen isn't an energy source, it's merely another form of energy storage battery, and not a very good one at that.

Exactly.
I don't know how or why Hydrogen even became something people consider. It has more problems than it could ever be worth to try to overcome.
I spose manufacturers wheel out these stupid ideas every so often just to get a mention in the media and keep their name in front of the masses whom posses the average IQ of a teapot.

I saw on a forum recently a guy saying compressed air powered cars were the way of the future. Up until he said that I had considered the guy to be reasonably intelligent!

quote:

Originally posted by DCS:
Exactly.
I don't know how or why Hydrogen even became something people consider. It has more problems than it could ever be worth to try to overcome.
I spose manufacturers wheel out these stupid ideas every so often just to get a mention in the media and keep their name in front of the masses whom posses the average IQ of a teapot.

Because on a knee-jerk level most folks think on, hydrogen comes from water and becomes water, we have lots and lots of water, so infinite fuel!

And it's only emission is water, right!

Right.

I am far from a Nazi hippie but basically the idea of hydrogen cars was dumped upon us by the car companies once electric vehicles became a reality.

In the same manner as in the 50's when electric cars were dumped on drivers of that era.

Simply put, car companies are always talking about the light at the end of the tunnel (the fossil fuel tunnel) but they never really want to reach the end.

The hydrogen you buy is made from oil.
You can make it from water but it is cheaper to make it from oil.
If you burn hydrogen in air it pollutes just like other fuels.
It is only clean when mixed with oxygen in a 2 to 1 ratio and forms water again giving up all that energy you put in to separate it.

Pure oxygen is much more dangerous than hydrogen and carrying both on vehicles would be like sitting on a bomb.

quote:

Originally posted by john galt:
H2 cars is a pipe dream. Truth is, the world will continue along like it has, fueled by diesel and gasoline but from natural gas, coal and heavy oil, which the world has hundreds of year's supply.

Hmmm..
People have been on earth for about 200,000 years or so.
Most "Modern History" has occurred in the last 2,000 to 4,000 years.
The Industrial Revolution started 200-300 years ago, as well as the majority of coal mining and oil wells (although some cultures have had small coal mines for over a millennium.
The USA has been a country for about 200 years.
We've had massive mining and pumping of coal and oil for 50-100 years.

And, now we are talking about wiping out the entire world's supply of oil and coal FOREVER within 1 or 2 generations.

That sounds like good future planning to me.

----------------------------------

As far as Hydrogen. There was rumors that Arnold Schwarzenegger had a Hydrogen H2 Hummer, and was pushing for more Hydrogen supply. I haven't heard much about it lately.

It does burn clean... perhaps with a few exceptions. You essentially can not get Carbon Dioxide or Carbon Monoxide from burning H2, except if you are also burning crankcase oil. No sulfur byproducts. However, I assume an unbalanced intake mixture would produce some NOX.

If there are real H2 pumps, I would assume that will all be put on hold the first time someone gets a severe H2 cold-burn at the pump, or an accident occurs with a serious H2 explosion. (not to mention that people do get killed with gasoline).

The advantage of H2 is that it could easily be tied to a Nuke Plant for essentially unlimited production.

I guess the reason for liquid fuels is the ease of refueling vehicles.

Batteries/Electric power works just as well, but the refueling is not as convenient for long trips (a minority of our driving). And, of course, we don't have an electric grid, or power generation system capable of providing 100% of the US Energy needs with electricity.

quote:

quote:

H2 cars is a pipe dream. Truth is, the world will continue along like it has, fueled by diesel and gasoline but from natural gas, coal and heavy oil, which the world has hundreds of year's supply.

....
And, now we are talking about wiping out the entire world's supply of oil and coal FOREVER within 1 or 2 generations.
That sounds like good future planning to me.

Don't misunderstand what I stated. Nobody's saying it's a good idea to carry on down that path, however that's the stark reality of what will happen as long as money and profit is used as the yardstick of success and for future planning.

As for H2 pipedreams, H2 can't be contained in the vessels and pipes we have now, the H2 molecule is the smallest in the universe and it leaks out through the 'holes' between other molecules.

Regardless of how you make H2, it's always more efficient/cost effective to use the energy directly. We already have an electric grid. Electric cars make way more sense than hydrogen, any way you look at it.
http://www.itee.uq.edu.au/~serl/ITEE%206-11-03.pdf

quote:

Originally posted by keelec:

It does burn clean... perhaps with a few exceptions. You essentially can not get Carbon Dioxide or Carbon Monoxide from burning H2, except if you are also burning crankcase oil. No sulfur byproducts. However, I assume an unbalanced intake mixture would produce some NOX.

If there are real H2 pumps, I would assume that will all be put on hold the first time someone gets a severe H2 cold-burn at the pump, or an accident occurs with a serious H2 explosion. (not to mention that people do get killed with gasoline).

The advantage of H2 is that it could easily be tied to a Nuke Plant for essentially unlimited production.

I guess the reason for liquid fuels is the ease of refueling vehicles.

Batteries/Electric power works just as well, but the refueling is not as convenient for long trips (a minority of our driving). And, of course, we don't have an electric grid, or power generation system capable of providing 100% of the US Energy needs with electricity.

You can't simply consider tailpipe emissions. Think about where the H2 comes from. It comes from COAL. It will release tons more CO2 to go that same mile than anything else you buy, because it is so inefficient. Hydrogen will have to be bound in chemical structures because liquid H2 is not possible, and compressed H2 will take 4x the volume than a normal tank. It will still leak out.

We already have efficient and environmentally sound hydrogen fuels. They are called ethanol and biodiesel.

Can't charge a battery fast on a trip? Exchange it for another. Simple, and so much cheaper than a compressed H2 station.

Well, there apparently ARE Hydrogen filling stations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Hydrogen_Highway
According to Wikipedia, there are 25 Hydrogen filling stations in California, and a total of 179 Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles. A few more H2 stations are planned.

• AC Transit Hydrogen Energy Station – Oakland
  
• AC Transit Hydrogen Energy Station – Richmond
  
• PG&E Station - San Francisco
  
• Santa Clara Valley Transportation Authority
  
• UC Davis Station
  
• West Sacramento Station
  
• BMW of North America – Oxnard
  
• Burbank Station
  
• Chino Station
  
• Chula Vista Station
  
• City of LA for Honda FCX Fleet
  
• Honda Home Energy Station - Torrance
  
• Honda Hydrogen Refueling Station – Torrance
  
• Long Beach Station
  
• Ontario Station
  
• Praxair-BP Hydrogen Fueling Station at LAX
  
• Riverside Station
  
• Rosemead Station
  
• Santa Ana Station
  
• Santa Monica Station
  
• SCAQMD Energy Station - Diamond Bar
  
• SunLine Station - Thousand Palms
  
• Toyota Station – Torrance
  
• UC Irvine Air Products Station
  
• UC Irvine Hydrogenics Station

Also note a couple of stations outside of California:

• A Washington, D.C., Shell gas station on 3355 Benning Road NE sells mostly gasoline but also has one hydrogen pump
  
• A hydrogen filling station opened in 2006 on the campus of The Ohio State University at the Center for Automotive Research. This station is the only one in Ohio.[6]
  
• A prototype hydrogen fueling station was built in compliance with all of the prevailing safety, environmental and building codes in Phoenix to demonstrate that such fueling stations could be built in urban areas.

And, for those Canadians...

• British Columbia, Canada, is building a seven node hydrogen refueling station network from Victoria to Whistler timed to coincide with the 2010 Winter Olympic Games. The node in Surrey was the first in the world to deliver hydrogen at 70 MPa, and is the longest operational node in the network, having been supplying hydrogen since March 2002

And, a few notes of other countries around the world including Japan, Iceland, Norway, and the UK.

I suppose the problem at this point with Hydrogen cars is that their range is still limited in much the same way as battery powered vehicles... no place to fuel them up, so range is still limited.

Again, the logical thing is to tie hydrogen production with nukes. Although, there are certainly other alternatives such as using organic or synthetic methane.

As far as leakage, I didn't realize it was a problem, but I'm seeing different estimates under 1% / day, which certainly would add up, but it would mean the loss of the equivalent to a couple of tanks a year. Not bad for the heavy user, but a bit frustrating for the grandma who heads to the store once a week. I assume this could be significantly reduced by making a double or triple walled tank with a vacuum (which would also be an excellent insulator), then scavenge the vacuum space every month or so.

Anyway, I would agree that H2 stands for Hype X 2

As far as exchanging batteries...
The problem is that every battery isn't equivalent. And, I would assume it would be difficult to estimate the wear and tear on a battery unit. So, unless we could design battery packs that do not wear out, then an exchange would not be practical.
A battery exchange would be like imposing Indy 500 rules... and exchanging tires every 100 miles... except that you never quite know what will be put back on your car... new, dry rotted, bald, threads hanging out, unaligned tires, recaps, cold caps, hot caps, separating treads, snow tires, all season tires, summer tires, studded tires, etc.

It would be more practical to have a 100% electric car... with an option of snagging a small travel trailer/generator unit for trips out of town.

One final note, essentially all energy conversions involve losses. Charging & utilizing modern batteries is no different.

quote:

Originally posted by keelec:
...

One final note, essentially all energy conversions involve losses. Charging & utilizing modern batteries is no different.

Of course everything has losses, no one argues that point. But H2 is less than half as efficient as pure electric. And as you mentioned above, 1% daily loss is HUGE, making gaseous hydrogen simply stupid.