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Need Help to reduce titration of 30+ (Extreme Bad WVO)
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Hi there, I need some help to reduce a super high titration of 30+ WVO down to a good level so i can make biodiesel. The reason why the tritration is so high is due to WVO refinery shop add in acid during the refine process.

Anyway, my first 2 batch failed, since i used the 1 stage process. first patch i only used 4g of NaOH, which no reaction. Second patch i used 34g of NaOH....lucky i am still alive.., anyway it turns the whole 1 litre oil to solid soap? =)

I just come across this forum an notice that i should be using this FATTA method, to reduce the acid first.

But my question is:
1) Will this method actually reduce a high tritration such as 30+ to like 3?
2) How long do i have to wait until it drops to 3?
3) anyone welling to give me a more detail instruction? I am pretty sure the WVO I have now, must require some special instruction.
4) Do i have to drain anything during the tritration reduction process?

Any help will be great

thanks.
 
Registered: November 08, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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you could try FATTA, but why there are other formulas that work better and more predictable results. 30 titration isn't that bad. the FATTA might drop it to 3 and it might not..the FATTA formula and you see that if the desired titration isn't reached then repeat. I guess you can see that I'm not a big fan of FATTA even though that's where mine started.

do you what kind of acid they used?

mixing left over glycerin might help reduce the existing acid.

#2
you might 24 hrs or more.

for #3
read more pages in the recipe section. its there

since you initial titration is more than 18KOH yes you'll want to drain after the acid stages reaches its minimum.

also make sure the oil is dry...the dry the better less 0.5%.


-dkenny


'84 bluebird school bus, DD8.2L turbo( 4/2011, the bus tranny has died..Frown 8.23.11 bus driven to scrap yard Frown )
2006 Jeep Liberty CRD Smile - the wife's
99 dodge 2500 5.9l 24v..-mine Smile
everything run B100 when its warm enough Smile
 
Location: RTP, North Carolina | Registered: December 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Mr Kenny, thank you for responding

I have no idea what kinda acid they add in, i am kinda stuck with 20 gallon of this 30+ tritration wvo here.

I will try the FATTA to lower the tritration in a day or two.

Personally i do hope if anyone can provide me other easier faster better yield method that will actually work for such high tritration. As i am planning to do biodiesel business, I do need a better method.

I am also planning to buy biodiesel machine, but i can't find any machine that is design for FATTA method. Most machine out there are for single stage method.

Any suggestion will be appreciated

thanks
 
Registered: November 08, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I guess the question should be...
Are you planning on getting lots of this oil, or is it a one-shot thing? If all you ever will have is 20 gallons, then play around with it and have fun... or use it for making soap Smile

What is causing the high titration numbers?

If acid was added to your oil, you may be getting high values from the acid, and not from free fatty acids.

Since you probably have acid already in the oil, your FATTA method makes sense. It might be possible you could add the original methanol without adding more acid.

However, another thing to try would be trying washing the oil with water, or water + baking soda.
Then dry your oil well (and do the "hot pan test").
Then try your titration and DR Pepper Biodiesel batch.

Good Luck
 
Location: Oregon | Registered: October 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Yes i am planning to keep buying these oil because it's cheap =)

I just checked with the shop where i bought the oil. He actually didn't add in any acid for the 20 gallon i bought. But he said the acid is alway high for the type of oil he is selling, the reasons are:
1) The oil is very dirty oil from resturant, it has food, fruit, all those garbage stuff which will grow acid when it's there for long.
2) The oil is mix oil from many many resturants, it may has heavily used vegitable oil, animal fat, etc etc.

Now it's confusing me, will this acid reduction actually work?? It seems like it's not FFA acid? The acid is from the fruit, food, etc....

Oh, one question, i made a batch with 34g of NaOH with 250m methonal + 1 liter of oil. The reason why i add in so much NaOH is because i thought the FFA tritration is 30. The whole thing turn to a big piece of soap. Does it mean i add in too much NaOH? Does that mean the FFA acid is not that high, just some other acid is affecting the FFA tritration test?

Anyone able to give me an intruction of what to do?
1) Like how to get the CORRECT FFA acid tritration? (notice there are other acid in the oil as well that maybe affecting the testing)
2) If I figure out the correct FFA acid, I don't have to care about the other acid in the oil? Just go ahead add in the correct amount of lye vs the FFA acid?



Help =)
 
Registered: November 08, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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try this..
measure the ph of you water
rinse the oil with the water
remeasure the ph. if the ph went down then the acid a water soluble( not FFA). this a mixure of baking soad, soda ash and water will reduce
the acid. there are other posts about how this is done.

other methods...yea read mine work almost all the time.

-dkenny


'84 bluebird school bus, DD8.2L turbo( 4/2011, the bus tranny has died..Frown 8.23.11 bus driven to scrap yard Frown )
2006 Jeep Liberty CRD Smile - the wife's
99 dodge 2500 5.9l 24v..-mine Smile
everything run B100 when its warm enough Smile
 
Location: RTP, North Carolina | Registered: December 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Thanks for suggestion,

I just made the test, the acid is water soluble! The Ph of the water dropped after i mixed the oil with the water.


so i notice the water + soda can reduce the acid, how many times do i have to wash it, so all the other acid are clean off?

also what's the ratio of water+ soda vs oil shall i use to wash?
 
Registered: November 08, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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don't know how many times you'll have to wash it but if the wash it once then rinse and titration stays the same( the rinse water compared to new) then is done. of course you'll need to dry the oil.

how much? don't know.
separate the water from the oil that you just rinsed through the oil. add baking soda until the ph reaches 7. note how much water and how much baking soda. you'll want to stir this mix.

-dkenny


'84 bluebird school bus, DD8.2L turbo( 4/2011, the bus tranny has died..Frown 8.23.11 bus driven to scrap yard Frown )
2006 Jeep Liberty CRD Smile - the wife's
99 dodge 2500 5.9l 24v..-mine Smile
everything run B100 when its warm enough Smile
 
Location: RTP, North Carolina | Registered: December 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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pirocop,
I sent you a P.M.


05 CRD and 07 Dodge 2500. Both on B100
 
Location: Fort Myers, Florida | Registered: November 30, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I am testing with baking soda today, probably have to wait a few days before seeing any results.

Anyone got any idea how to remove the ugly smell of my WVO? It smells HORRIBLE!! Probably due to the excess acid, i can't imagine if i turn these to biodiesel and use it on a truck, it's going to smell like @#$#@$, someone can probably smell me coming from 1 miles away.

Any idea about removing the smell will be appreciated.
 
Registered: November 08, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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i just test with the soda, after 24hours, the titration has no change!

It still at 44...

any other method to remove the acid of the WVO? quicker more efficient wait?
 
Registered: November 08, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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the biodiesel won't smell as bad as the oil.
it will not smell great either.

did you mix the baking soda in water first?
also it could mean all the water based acids are gone and you're left with the FFA..


-dkenny


'84 bluebird school bus, DD8.2L turbo( 4/2011, the bus tranny has died..Frown 8.23.11 bus driven to scrap yard Frown )
2006 Jeep Liberty CRD Smile - the wife's
99 dodge 2500 5.9l 24v..-mine Smile
everything run B100 when its warm enough Smile
 
Location: RTP, North Carolina | Registered: December 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Look at the "Dry Wash" section of this BBS.

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/frm/f/5521001332

I don't know about bulk processing.

But, essentially in a Chem Lab (from what I remember doing 10 years ago)

One fills a column with a polar substance.

Then pours the mixture of compounds down the column.

Everything will eventually flow through, or can be rinsed through with a solvent. However, different parts of the substance will move at different speeds.

Larger molecules move slower than smaller molecules.

More polar molecules (in a polar column) will move slower than less polar molecules.

So...
Your triglycerides would likely come down faster than the Free Fatty Acids.

So... say out of a 10 gallon batch, the first 2/3 of the oil or so coming through would be your oil.

With clear glass and UV, one can often see bands moving through.

Unfortunately, I don't know how lab techniques to separate a few ml of a substance differ from bulk production.

--------------------------

You might also contact: Donniej

See where he is with his "supercritical experiment"
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/419605551/m/5321010662/p/1

He is probably a bit early in the testing, but there certainly would be benefits of being able to convert FFA's if his setup would do that... anyway it might be fun to test.

---------------------------------

Trying to think... you said you were getting something like Jello, I think. I assume your BD is mixed in there somewhere. But, it would likely be pretty well bound by the soap.

You could try playing with your "Jello".

Let it sit.

Add water and let it sit.

Maybe water + centrifuge.

Perhaps try "post processing" with HCl (Muratic Acid from Hardware store), in about equal proportions to the NaOH that you originally added.
 
Location: Oregon | Registered: October 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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hey! Did i just got something!

I done many test. One of my bottle i have the following:

- 100 ml of this crazy 44g titration wvo
- mix with 20ml water + 2.5g of baking soda
i forgot how many days i have waited, but i assume should be around 5 days already.

The titration went from 44 down to 37!
Shall i wait longer and it may drop more? Or take the oil out and do soda + water again?

Wonder if it will ever gets to 3 to 6....

I am testing with NaOH + Water mixing to the WVO at the momment, will post the result later
 
Registered: November 08, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Pirocop,

My setup is as follows.

I use a 60 gallon cone bottom tank.
I fill it with 50 gallons of high titrating oil.
I mix 5 gallons of water with 2 pounds of baking soda.
I mix the water/baking soda solution with the oil.
I have a 1/4" plug on the bottom of the tank where I attach an air pump.
the air is pumped through the bottom of the tank and mixes the wat/baking soda mix with the oil.

I normally run it for 1-2 days, then let it settle for another day and drain the water out.


In your case, try shaking/stirring it every hour or so. looks like your baking soda/water solution is staying on the bottom.

You want to keep it mixed so that the acids mix with the solution.

Let me know how it works out.


05 CRD and 07 Dodge 2500. Both on B100
 
Location: Fort Myers, Florida | Registered: November 30, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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i am kinda confused with baking soda + water

it reduce FFA acids? or Water soluble acids? Or both?

Actually how long do i have to wait?

the damn oil crystalize at even 30oC

btw do you guys think using the Lye+water method is better and more efficient? Or it has bad yield?
 
Registered: November 08, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Im gonna catch crud from this but here goes.

FFA's + Water + A Base + aggitation = Soap

Bakeing soda = mild base
'Lye' = strong base

So with makeing soap you are reduceing the FFA's in the oil, but it is going to reduce yield from starting amount.

If your worried about yield you will need to do an acid/base process, which will convert the FFA's to Bio, but it takes longer and a bit more complicated. If you want easy and uncomplicated do the soap makeing process.

Trc


If you can't dazzel them with brilliance, then baffel them with bullchit.
 
Location: north of houston, south of dallas, east of austin | Registered: August 31, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by pirocop:
btw do you guys think using the Lye+water method is better and more efficient? Or it has bad yield?


Here are some good recipes on how to make Lye Soap

http://farmgal.tripod.com/lyesoapconcoctions.html

The basic difference between biodiesel and soap is the addition of the water.

Most of these soap recipes seem to involve heat, so it is possible that you could use a stronger base like ammonia or lye and keep it cold to help in the separation of Free Fatty Acids from the Triglycerides. But, you're walking on thin ice.

Have you tried the glycerin washes that others have discussed?
 
Location: Oregon | Registered: October 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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trc59,
you're correct, but what if the titration is high because of water soluble acids and not FFA. say like vinegar? the acid base processing isn't going to work properly in this case.

I think the acid/base with water based acids happend faster then the FFA/oil/water/base reaction.

like keelec said -- thin ice here!!!

-dkenny

-dkenny


'84 bluebird school bus, DD8.2L turbo( 4/2011, the bus tranny has died..Frown 8.23.11 bus driven to scrap yard Frown )
2006 Jeep Liberty CRD Smile - the wife's
99 dodge 2500 5.9l 24v..-mine Smile
everything run B100 when its warm enough Smile
 
Location: RTP, North Carolina | Registered: December 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I haven't try the glycerin washes yet, i don't think that's going to be efficient for high FFA.

I had an accident today, i forgot to unplug the heater, it boils the water to high temperature which then shrink my plastic bottle, the oil got out of the bottle, and it's all over the place..lol

Anyway, I think lye+ water mix to the high FFA will have very bad yeild for biodiesel.

The soda+ water method works, but it didn't reduce enough, and the wait is too long, i think it's because my water+soda didn't mix long enough with the WVO. I am going to try emiperformance's suggestion about using bubble at the bottom of the bottle.

btw the soda+water remove the ugly smell of the oil as well, but i am talking about ALOT of soda needed..

about soda+water treating WVO, what's the yield after the reaction? How much WVO is lost?
 
Registered: November 08, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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