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Neutralizing acid value with Glycerine
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Has anyone tried adding glycerine in after the acid stage to neutralize the titration value of the acid. Im just wondering if it will lower the titration further and also draw out the water produced in the acid stage.
 
Registered: May 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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It would likely work, but how much methanol would be left after draining the glycerin?
 
Location: Cowboy Country | Registered: December 06, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Thats one of the aspects I have wondered about. Will draining the glycerine take methanol out or leave more? Will the acid crack some of the glycerine back to FFA's????
Can you tell I didnt do well in chemistry?
 
Registered: May 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Well, You can try it and let us know how it turned out.
 
Location: Cowboy Country | Registered: December 06, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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hookline: I'll be trying that this coming week, but ater thinking about it for awhile, the methanol is not disolved into the oil, or visa versa, but should flaot on top (I'm hoping) thereby allowing the removal of the acid striping gltc byproduct. so if you don't try it first, wacth your thread for the results of this experiment. don't you just love this stuff Smile Smile Tom


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Well, in a roundabout way...I tried it yesterday and today. I have this one oil source..it titrates high, but acid stage doesnt affect the tritration. maybe 1-2 drop..but thats it. I havent made any bio in a month, and forgot where this oil came from. So...and here's another screw up...I loaded the processor,and added 15% glycerine. Mixed, settled, drained. T was 13 KOH..So I started an acid stage. T went to 16. Ok, so I added 10% glycerine, T dropped back to 13 after I drained out the glycerine. Here's the funny part..to me anyway.
I have a feeling the inititial T was 13..it always is from this place. BUT...................
Methanol needed for seperation was about 16%. Dont know if it will pass yet since its still mixing.
I need to think these things thru first Roll Eyes
 
Registered: May 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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hookeline; how much acid did you use/ltr. too much will cuase an increase in T. another thing, when you put the acid in and mixed for a few min. then add the methanol, I use 100 ml/ltr of oil, then mix 20 min and let stand. for oil that Ts at 13 I would use 1.2 ml/ltr of oil, and expect the final T to be 1.5-1.7 hope this helps. ConfusedTom


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I used 2ml/L, titration was 13, so it should be dead on. Its just this oil...nothing you do to it reduces the titration. They must be using some kind of cleaning chemical.
I guess in theory adding the glycerine after the acid treatment works..but the way I did it is way screwy.
 
Registered: May 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Miserable 3/27 fail..I think the glycerine pulled some methanol out. I ran extended mixing times and the KOH was correct for the titration. Assuming the titration was accurate. My method of T is correct, but I have my doubts about whether or not the T value was accurate for this oil.
 
Registered: May 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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hookeline: yes in theory, a theory I will test starting tomorrow. I'm going to acid a 150 ltre batch of T 10 oil to nite I'll post results on your thread Monday if you don't mind. Now getting back to your oil, I for one can't think of contaminant like you've mentioned that could cause this problem, but I'm not a chemist either Confused could it be, that T wasn,t quite as high as you thought, (i"m not trying to poke holes in your proceedure, just trying to understand) this is the first thing I would check, using new T solutions ect because if the T was lower, 2ml/ltr of high grade acid is going to work against you. I've always found that a little less acid is better than too much. the second thing is the amount of methanol. If you don't put in enough, T will be INCREASED, not lowered. I know this is getting long but want to share this, At first I had difficuly putting that much meth in the acid stage and only having 1/2 to complete the base/base stages. In my mind this could never work, so with each batch I added a little more until I hit a number the worked that was as I stated 100ml/ltr. Maybe you just need a little more methamol to get to the happy place Smile Don't think I would fool around with the glyc wash/acid strip yet, figure out how to break down this oil first, Interesting thread, NEVER GIVE UP Tom


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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hookline : in response to you 3/27 fail I'd call that very expected even if you did the base/base proceedure with oil that Ts that high. it just does't work reliably, that's my experiance anyway, others my not agree, Frown Tom


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Tom,
all the other oil I get I get predicatble and accurate results, from titration to acid stage to base reaction..all normal stuff. But every time I get oil from this restaraunt, it titrates high(13) and the acid stage does nothing for it. Overall it just gives me fits. I havent gotten oil from this rest in a while, and forgot that I had this oil in the settling tote. I dont want to get rid of this source, but if its giving me headaches, Im seriously thinking about it.
 
Registered: May 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Hookline, just had another question, does it look like your source for this good stuff uses hydroginated oil, you know, that hard or semi hard stuff some add to the deep fryer? this oil is harder to work with, because of the water content. another thing that might work is washing the oil with a water and KOH mix, this should lower the T but you would need to dry before processing
-another way that I would try would be , skip the acid, do a base/base base, 80/10/10. depending on how much time you have to play with this,try increasing the methanol, say go from 20 to 22 to 25 to 28% and soon to see what happens. I would experiment with 2ltre (pop bottle) batches, see what happens. as you can see I'm not going down without a fight (A headache for sure) If bio can and has been made from oil with a T of 50+, I've been told, this situation is doable. Tom


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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anything the can be in the oil that is acidic will cause a false high titration.
vinegar..other acids..
what's cooked in this oil?

Biotom I see you have noticed something I also seen..sometime just adding methanol will help lower the titration. this is why I use 12% not 10% like you..same reason for getting to this amount, but I started with worse oil..13-20 range. to me this way anyone who processes using acid/base needs to share so some sense can be made from it.

It also seems there is a tie between the titration and the amount of methanol needed..I don't have a formula for this. something to work on. at moment most if not all my oil have been good. the worst was a titration of 5. so working is slow..

for how much a glycerin treatment will lower the titration..this depends on how much KOH is left from the base stage..one batch you might 10 gallon, next you might need 15.


dkenny


'84 bluebird school bus, DD8.2L turbo( 4/2011, the bus tranny has died..Frown 8.23.11 bus driven to scrap yard Frown )
2006 Jeep Liberty CRD Smile - the wife's
99 dodge 2500 5.9l 24v..-mine Smile
everything run B100 when its warm enough Smile
 
Location: RTP, North Carolina | Registered: December 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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hooknline,

is this the same lousy oil that we've tried to get working before?

if it is it would hurt to try a lower multiplier..so 0.17 instead of 0.2..kinda like Biotom is saying. what's strange about this oil is you're seeing no drop? maybe there are 2 effects going on..something acid in the oil causing you to use too much acid. I don't think you've tried this before.

again more methanol might help/ since you're below where you need to drain..this shouldn't be a problem.

just some more thoughts

-dkenny


'84 bluebird school bus, DD8.2L turbo( 4/2011, the bus tranny has died..Frown 8.23.11 bus driven to scrap yard Frown )
2006 Jeep Liberty CRD Smile - the wife's
99 dodge 2500 5.9l 24v..-mine Smile
everything run B100 when its warm enough Smile
 
Location: RTP, North Carolina | Registered: December 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Tom, its not PHO..it looks like normal good oil.When I pick it up, there doesnt seem to be an excess of water in it either.
DK..yep, same oil. Im going to try using lower increments of KOH in the normal amount of methanol with some test batches, hoping there is some kind of acid value in the oil to begin with.
If you remember, I washed a sample of this oil to see if the water would read any acidity, but it did not. One strange thing about this oil..once collected and pump into my settling tote, there seems to be some sort of foamy head on the top that does not go away with any amount of settling. Looks almost like oil,fat, and foam all combined into one mix that floats on top of the oil. Only this oil.
I keep meaning to ask them if they are doing anything different, but they are hard to get a hold of, and I collect when they are closed.
 
Registered: May 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Also, I am planning on trying to use some glycerine after acid stage on some oil that I know works with the acid stage. Tom, if you get a chance, please let us know your results.
 
Registered: May 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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hooknline,

last time we looked for other acids causing a false low titration? right? If I remember from the high schools days we used oven clean to remove grease..almost pure NaOH..what if this type of clean is in the oil..this would cause a false low titration, at least I think it would. if you can wash a sample of the oil with water, just like before. but check the ph of the water first and after the rinse. don't use our titration stuff..a PH test strip should be fine. have an aquarium ph testing supplies? they'll work as well. if this is the case the your not using enough acid..the acid you are adding is neutralized by the NaOH in the oil.

yep. I'm as bad as tom..just like a hound dog following a scent..

-dkenny


'84 bluebird school bus, DD8.2L turbo( 4/2011, the bus tranny has died..Frown 8.23.11 bus driven to scrap yard Frown )
2006 Jeep Liberty CRD Smile - the wife's
99 dodge 2500 5.9l 24v..-mine Smile
everything run B100 when its warm enough Smile
 
Location: RTP, North Carolina | Registered: December 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Ill have to get some ph strips...but in the meantime, here's one for you
Same oil, different batch. T at 13KOH, mix it all up using a base of 9, no acid stage, so 22g/L
Oil started out a beatiful orange. Clean, dry oil verified with HPT. Add the MEOH, run pumps(double pumper) for 2 hrs. pull sample while pumps are running. It has turned that beautiful rootbeer color...but ABSOLUTLY NO SEPERATION! add more MEOH in incremements to a 1L sample...no matter how much I add, no seperation.no obvious soapiness the the sample.One of 2 things, glycerine is so much that 2 of the NT pumps cant keep up with the fallout and Im just pulling glycerine, or this oil is cursed. The sample is awful dark, but clear. Im done with this oil...it aint worth the hassle. Well see how much if any bio there is tomorrow. Mad
 
Registered: May 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I used my pool supply kit.
water is 7.8 ph
after washing oil real quick the wash water is 6.4
So its acidic, causing a false high T. How would a 1.4 ph value affect the titration number.How many ML difference.
 
Registered: May 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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