I did AE on a batch of wvo that titrates 15 got it to drop to 6 and then did my methanol KOH reaction but the wash emulisufied and I threw alot of it out. What can I expect for a percent yield on wvo that titrates high? I had a couple of bum batches doing AE and my wife thinks homebrewing is a waste of money . I,m going to have to get it right ,especially now that I'm laid-off .

Hi Heatbeater
Sorry to hear you have been laid off-I do not do AE,so can't help-I am sure others will help you

Maybe I"ll have to go into selling bio for a living . I don't know if it would be feasible but I do have the experience. I was always thinking of some way to make a living in case my job dried up and this is where I'm at.

Heat
-sorry to here about the job, I think the bio industry would be a good one to get into, it sucks right now with the low price of petro diesel but that can't contunue. My take on that, big oil is trying to close the bio industry down. we need legislation forcing big oil to blend with biodiesel. that law is just comming into effect here in Manitoba, it was a BIG boost to the bio producer (ya, so far there is only one licenced up and running)
-about your wash and the dreaded emulsion. I have been doing so work on this, and with the help of a biodiesel chemist, have determined we wash with toooo much water. As he says, every thing in chemistry (and I know nothing about it) has to have the right balance to achieve a desired result. After reviewing their wash process, I was surprised to see they only use 5 - 7 % water/ boidiesel in the wash. To me this was insane, so I tried it, 160 ltr of bio and 16 ltr of water,( I don't follow instructions very well) the temp was 50C this is important, as the ions move at a much faster speed at that temp and therefore attract more soap. the bottom line here, after 15 minutes of PUMP wash (I was in panic mode here ) there is a very diffinite seperation after 5 minutes. then let it set,for 45 min, drain, then repeat. I should also mention that iron laden water is very problimatic, seems the ions in the water get saturated with iron, and there is minimal room for soap attraction. Hope this helps. Tom

Tom , I found out the hard way and that is to always take a jar sample to see if there's any thing that's settling out,and that's where I threw out alot of bio from one batch. I also took a sample of what is supposed to be washed and dried bio from the bottom of a 250 tote and it was not the same as a sample from the top. The bottom sample was cloudy so I added an equal amount of water and shook the day lights out of it. It looked like milk ,all of it. It took a week before it settled into three layers. 1)bio 2) soap 3) water. I,m going to have to draw off the top in small amounts until I get into some that's cloudy and re-wash.

Interesting about using 5-7 % water and pump washing? By pump washing you mean you add the full amount of water (the 5-7%) and then pump the the water and bio together? Let's see 50 C is what temp F. Repeat the water and bio pump and settle until you have clear water that settles out? Is this right?

Heat
-did you check out RickDaTech's new biodiesel drying thread, the pictures of washed biodiesel, are probaly the best I have seen!

-yes that is correct. I used 10% water but on the next batch I will use less. the nice thing about this is you are ready for draining in one hour. 50C is about 130f. from what I was told, it is VERY important not to exceed 55C!
-not nessacarily clear water, but when you can see the bio on top of the water starting to clear up I will post you some pics tomorrow. Tom

heat
-one more thought about the emulsion, what temp do you do the base process at. Jim the chemist says never never at any cost process at more than 55C. at 65c you start to set the batch up for some reverse reaction which creates mono and di glyceridids, this can really lead to an emulsion.

quote:

at 65c you start to set the batch up for some reverse reaction which creates mono and di glyceridids, this can really lead to an emulsion

Tom, I take the blended wvo temp up to 145 F before I inject the methoxide but my set-up can't go any higher, one heating element can't hold the temp any higher than 145 F with 140 liters of wvo. I had to do the base reaction twice ,the first time I couldn't get it to pass 3/27. I can't remember the exact figures but I was wondering if to much KOH would lead to emulisions? Any thoughts? I which I had a before understanding of what takes place under various conditions.

quote:

I have been doing so work on this, and with the help of a biodiesel chemist, have determined we wash with toooo much water. As he says, every thing in chemistry (and I know nothing about it) has to have the right balance to achieve a desired result. After reviewing their wash process, I was surprised to see they only use 5 - 7 % water/ boidiesel in the wash. To me this was insane, so I tried it, 160 ltr of bio and 16 ltr of water,( Big GrinI don't follow instructions very well) the temp was 50C this is important, as the ions move at a much faster speed at that temp and therefore attract more soap. the bottom line here, after 15 minutes of PUMP wash (I was in panic mode here Big Grin) there is a very diffinite seperation after 5 minutes. then let it set,for 45 min, drain, then repeat. I should also mention that iron laden water is very problimatic, seems the ions in the water get saturated with iron, and there is minimal room for soap attraction. Hope this helps. Tom

Hi Tom
Very interesting results your friend has come up with,and may explain why I have never had emulsion problems(yet),even bubble washing right from the off.My wash tanks were polypropylene 80 Lt tanks (2 side by side)from the hardware store which I would put say 50lts - 60lts of bio in ,then because there was not much room left,(and worrying about the tanks splitting!) I would only add 5 lts-10 lts of water (captured rain water from water butts)and do many of these "smaller" washes,until the water stays clear-at this time the bio will clear as well even with the bubbler still running(something I have always thought is strange-get the same result from a shakem test, if you leave the bio on top of the water-it will go clear over some days,even with the cap still on,and all the water underneath).
I have just acquired a much bigger tank to wash the whole batch as "one",with much more water but maybe my thinking is wrong ,and I should stick around the 10% mark and keep doing many smaller washes,like I used to do with my smaller tanks.
What is very important in all of this, is absolutely no by-product, is involved in the wash cycle at all.
Heatbeater.
I think your excess KOH will give you excess soap which is the emulsifier-and maybe not enough washing to make sure it is all gone.

taralec
-interesting results. I guess it,s all about the chemistery (should have stayed in school ). Like I said, I didn't think it was possable. Seems to me that a lot of emulsion problems are being cause by the use of too much water. before you change your batch size to allow for more water, wash 1/2 of the bio amount in the current tank, just use more water and see what happens. and about the byproduct in the wash, you are right, except that without a sufficient amount of water to get the soaps active, there is no problem. Tom