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anyone still using bentonite?
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Somewhere in the midle of the big acid disscusion, the was some mention of hanging a sock of bentonite chips in the processor to soak up water generated in the reaction. Is anyone still working on that? I'd like to know how that works. Is a new sock of chips used every batch, is it good for a few batches? is it used in acid and base? There is so much information in that one topic, I had to read it twice to get all of it! Thanks again everyone who contributed to that, it has totally changed the way I make fuel.


powering
2 bobcats, an excavator, and a ventrac mower. looking for a diesel weedeater!
 
Location: morgantown wv | Registered: June 18, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Buckeye was the person working on bentonite to remove water prior to AE, he hasn't posted here for a long time, nor does he respond to emails or PM's which is discouraging since he did a huge amount of testing during the the Acid thread discussions. Tom


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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That's kind of a bummer that he dropped off. I kind of stumbled onto that the other day when I was re-reading that thread. there is so much information in there, it is hard to pick up all of it in one read. Tom, did you try any of it? from what I gathered in the acid discussion, was that you kept the bentonite in the processor for both acid and base. Am I reading that correctly? There is a lot of drilling going on around here so I'm going to see if I can get some and try. most of what I have seen is powder, I hope that will work.

The last several batches of terrible (10.5 naoh) oil has prompted us to redo our plans for raw oil storage. for us it's not just water, but also what appears to be tallow, and batter. I boiled off some of the bottom oil (looked like butterscotch pudding), and it was about 25% water, what was left was solid below about 85 degrees. some of the tallow has been getting into each batch lately, and raising our gel point.

I'm going to put in a series of three cold upflow tanks (500 gallon each). those will be fed by our original settling tank. then some heated tanks with vacuum on them to try to reduce the hand's on time it takes to filter and boil off each batch. right now we are at about 3 hrs per 375 gallon batch due to all the water. the extra tanks are not just for settling and filtering, but also to act as a storage buffer. I was thinking I could incorporate some bentonite in that set up as well. I wonder what would work for a sock, and rope? cotton, polyester, nylon? It's going to have to take 165F temps in sulfuric and lye.


powering
2 bobcats, an excavator, and a ventrac mower. looking for a diesel weedeater!
 
Location: morgantown wv | Registered: June 18, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I realize this is an old thread..

if I recall correctly..CLEAN/DRY oil is the biggest key.

clean...think 10 micron filtered or better..buckeye run his through a centrifuge to clean and dry the oil.

dry..if you can pump air into your tank of oil..the vapor coming out should not condense on a cold glass jar..of course there are exceptions..
higher titrating oils use more acid then drain
5-10T still use more ACID..think 0.3 instead of 0.2 or less..YES, but plan on draining( per biotom). I haven't tried this, but the diecy part is getting the mix(methanol/water/acid) to settle to the bottom. for lower T's using more acid will force the mix down. Yes biotom it will work..like you emailed. fyi normally draining is required starting around T14 KOH..over T18 KOH its required.

now if you're thinking about using AE..do you have a methanol recovery plan/setup? YOU WILL NEED IT!.

all the drained stuff is full of methanol..prime stuff for a good methanol recovery setup.

-dkenny


'84 bluebird school bus, DD8.2L turbo( 4/2011, the bus tranny has died..Frown 8.23.11 bus driven to scrap yard Frown )
2006 Jeep Liberty CRD Smile - the wife's
99 dodge 2500 5.9l 24v..-mine Smile
everything run B100 when its warm enough Smile
 
Location: RTP, North Carolina | Registered: December 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Road runner / Dave I have it from a very good source he will be back that made my day!!! Big Grin Big Grin


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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At one point, we were centrifuging, but it didn't seem like it made much difference in our numbers. I'm only filtering to 100 microns now. I know we are getting it dry. we cook off every batch 250F under 26" vac. I heat and every batch. Every batch I have had any trouble with has either been through using reclaimed methanol(acid step), or when I had a filter bag break. I found a source for chips, So I'm going to give it a try in the next few months.


powering
2 bobcats, an excavator, and a ventrac mower. looking for a diesel weedeater!
 
Location: morgantown wv | Registered: June 18, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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RR as you have discovered, AE is no place to use reclaimed methanol! Use new methanol for ae and the reclaimed stuff for base processing. sounds to me that your oil is as dry as it can be! Tom


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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unless you know your recovered methanol is 99% or better..save it for the base stages.

while its possible to get methanol recovery to 99+% most don't.

what micron are you filtering the oil? the crap in the oil can hold water and other things to neutralize the acid

-dkenny


'84 bluebird school bus, DD8.2L turbo( 4/2011, the bus tranny has died..Frown 8.23.11 bus driven to scrap yard Frown )
2006 Jeep Liberty CRD Smile - the wife's
99 dodge 2500 5.9l 24v..-mine Smile
everything run B100 when its warm enough Smile
 
Location: RTP, North Carolina | Registered: December 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I'm filtering to 100 micron. I may try to go a little lower, but not until I build a few heated tanks, I just takes too long to do 375 gallons of cold oil. my new cold upflow set up is really helping with the water, and filter plugging. hopefully it helps the numbers as well.


powering
2 bobcats, an excavator, and a ventrac mower. looking for a diesel weedeater!
 
Location: morgantown wv | Registered: June 18, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hey RR, the bentonite is used in the acid stage, I never used it for trans although I don't see how it could hurt. The clay is re-usable, you just need to throughly dry it out between acid stages.

Make sure you use sodium bentonite, potassium bentonite does not work.
 
Location: Buckeye | Registered: July 07, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Are you hanging it in the processor, or your methanol mixer? I have a local driller who uses the chips all the time, I just want a head start on the learning curve.


powering
2 bobcats, an excavator, and a ventrac mower. looking for a diesel weedeater!
 
Location: morgantown wv | Registered: June 18, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Road Runner:
Are you hanging it in the processor, or your methanol mixer? I have a local driller who uses the chips all the time, I just want a head start on the learning curve.


Its best to have an inline filter and do a light pump mix off the bottom of the tank to the top. If you don't have a large enough filter housing you can use a tied up sock (although they will fall apart from the dimethylsulphate if left in the tank too long) set in front of the bottom drain for light pump mixing and have had good results.

10g/l sodium bentonite seems to give great results, although half that can be used and still do very well. Bentonite is cheap and reusable so put in as much as will fit in your filter housing/sock Smile
 
Location: Buckeye | Registered: July 07, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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I have some bag filter housings, but they won't take the heat. I assume you mean filter housing in-line with the processor. I'll have to ponder on that a while exactly how to set that up.


powering
2 bobcats, an excavator, and a ventrac mower. looking for a diesel weedeater!
 
Location: morgantown wv | Registered: June 18, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Road Runner:
I have some bag filter housings, but they won't take the heat. I assume you mean filter housing in-line with the processor. I'll have to ponder on that a while exactly how to set that up.


That is correct, I believe banjo makes some high temp plastic filter units that would work for your setup, maybe check Fimco too...
 
Location: Buckeye | Registered: July 07, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I've got some hayward filter housings, I don' think they would take the 165F temps I run at. they say they are rated for 240, but when I tried to use one at about 175, the basket failed.


powering
2 bobcats, an excavator, and a ventrac mower. looking for a diesel weedeater!
 
Location: morgantown wv | Registered: June 18, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Road Runner:
I've got some hayward filter housings, I don' think they would take the 165F temps I run at. they say they are rated for 240, but when I tried to use one at about 175, the basket failed.


Sounds like your housing is rated for the temp but not the basket Smile Call the manufacturer and see if they have a high temp basket, or better yet just make one out of a small of light expanded steel.

Most metal yards have rem piles (remnants from doing other jobs) and sell it by the pound for cheap, you should have no trouble finding a piece that would work. Of course I am assuming your 'baskets' are cylindrical Smile
 
Location: Buckeye | Registered: July 07, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I've actually been looking to replace my filter bags with metal screens. I found a place online that makes them, but that's as far as I got. I have to find out if I can fit a 32" cylinder into a dishwasher first. that will be something going into the lab is a dishwasher. I'm getting tired of washing lab ware by hand. if it will handle the metal filters I want, that would be really cool. I don't know if I will be using these housings for heat or not, I got a killer deal on them, but when they got here, all three had been patched (poorly) with jb weld around the threaded inlet. Looks like someone overtightened them, and cracked them. one of them has a pretty good drip, I've been meaning to get out the die grinder and epoxy, but can't find the time. i may look for a metal housing if I want to pursue it.
So, let me get this straight, you bypass the benntonite during base processing, or do you have a seperate processing tank for ae? I was hoping that it would work on base processing as well. I really struggled mixing lye tonight with the humidity, I know my soaps are going to be a little higher because of it.


powering
2 bobcats, an excavator, and a ventrac mower. looking for a diesel weedeater!
 
Location: morgantown wv | Registered: June 18, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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A dishwasher would be a pretty cool lab upgrade Big Grin

quote:
Originally posted by Road Runner:
So, let me get this straight, you bypass the benntonite during base processing, or do you have a seperate processing tank for ae? I was hoping that it would work on base processing as well. I really struggled mixing lye tonight with the humidity, I know my soaps are going to be a little higher because of it.


I would imagine that the bentonite would aid in trans as well, I just never tried it. AE should be done in a separate tank from trans, using the same reactor for both can have a big impact on your finish T (the caustic that stays in the reactor neutralizes your acid and creates water); but then again if that is all you have it's a far better choice than not doing an acid hit at all. Wink

Give bentonite a run on trans, it would be very interesting to see those results!
 
Location: Buckeye | Registered: July 07, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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right now that is what I have to work with. I check each batch to be neutral. I am not quite getting where I want to be on every batch.lately starting t is in the 5-7 naoh range, and finishes acid step up around 1.3-1.8.naoh. I'm pretty sure that is is leftover caustic giving me the issues. I still get good yeilds, but know I can do better on numbers once I get a new processor built for acid.

I put together a dedicated tank for mixing fresh methanol and sulfuric. that has helped alot. I was previously pulling in fresh methanol into my methoxide mixer, and it did give me problems

I read in other threads you are working with trap grease, how is that working out? when we even get down into our dregs/ tallow layer , I have filter problems, and numbers in the 12- 13 range. I can't imagine dealing with higher than that. how about gel point on fuel made from that? I can get it dry, and may have better luck dealling with filtering if it is heated first, but am reluctant to try on the scale we are on. It's tough to hide a failed batch when it is 375 gallons. I should really set up a test size processor to experiment with.


powering
2 bobcats, an excavator, and a ventrac mower. looking for a diesel weedeater!
 
Location: morgantown wv | Registered: June 18, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Road Runner:
right now that is what I have to work with. I check each batch to be neutral. I am not quite getting where I want to be on every batch.lately starting t is in the 5-7 naoh range, and finishes acid step up around 1.3-1.8.naoh. I'm pretty sure that is is leftover caustic giving me the issues. I still get good yeilds, but know I can do better on numbers once I get a new processor built for acid.


You switch to a dedicated AE tank and those numbers will drop even lower, faster, and with less chemicals

quote:

I put together a dedicated tank for mixing fresh methanol and sulfuric. that has helped alot. I was previously pulling in fresh methanol into my methoxide mixer, and it did give me problems


Over at AZ Bio they used to do that, once I got them switched it made a HUGE difference on their AE, even more so than using a dedicated AE tank (although you should still do this Smile)

quote:

I read in other threads you are working with trap grease, how is that working out? when we even get down into our dregs/ tallow layer , I have filter problems, and numbers in the 12- 13 range. I can't imagine dealing with higher than that. how about gel point on fuel made from that? I can get it dry, and may have better luck dealling with filtering if it is heated first, but am reluctant to try on the scale we are on. It's tough to hide a failed batch when it is 375 gallons. I should really set up a test size processor to experiment with.


Those questions require very long answers Smile

Let me try to sum it up, trap grease is becoming the primary source of oil for my company, it's cheap, there is tons of it, and I have a good system for economically esterfying it into high quality feedstock for biodiesel production (meaning very low FFA's and all contaminents removed)

The biggest problems with trap grease is sulfur and sterol glocosides. Sulfur mostly comes out during AE and tranesterification so is not much of anything to worry about. Sterol Glucosides, SG's for short, are a different story. They concentrate in the trap oil, have a large impact on gel points, destroy fuel systems if not completely removed, and they are a HUGE PAIN to remove Smile

Try experimenting with it, but you won't be able to mess with trap waste until you have a first rate AE (or better yet HTAE) reactor.

FFA's range from 20% to 90%; I can handle most feedstocks with one AE hit these days but it took a long time to figure out how to maximize the reaction and I am still always trying to make improvements.
 
Location: Buckeye | Registered: July 07, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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