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remember for base stage to calculate koh requirement on the total volume of liquid in the processor after AE, not on the starting oil volume


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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That's news to me: what's that based on, Biotom?
 
Location: Southern WI, USA | Registered: May 18, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Your titration after AE is base on a larger, somewhat deluted by methenol, volume of oil.


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Sorry, nada, you are working with the exact same volume of oil you started with, the titration is the titration, period end of story.
 
Location: West Michigan | Registered: April 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Titration # is that of a larger volume of liquid period.

say you have 300ltr oil that has T of 7.5 you do AE,
at the end of AE batch is well mixed an a T sample is drawn, what is in that sample? wvo,methanol and acid. it represents the contents of the processor which at this time is 336 ltrs if you use DK formula. If you only add caustic for 300ltr based on the current titration be prepared to reprocess.

so if ending T was 2.5 you would calculate 2.5*336= 840gr, add this to the base amount of 7.5 (if this is the amount you use) * 300 = 2250 = 3090 gr KOH

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Biotom,


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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So in effect you are saying the T number you come up with when you take a sample toward the end of the AE process is not the real T number of the material in the processor.
 
Location: West Michigan | Registered: April 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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it is the T number of the total volume of product in the tank which include the wvo, the acid and methanol mix. and not the T of the wvo alone.


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I think we discussed on this same hiccup once before. The other option was to run your KOH calculation normally using your starting oil volume, but increase your sample by the percent of methanol you added for the acid stage. I.E., if you added 10% methanol for the acid stage, to run your titration on a 1.1ml (10% more) oil sample.

I'd tried it both ways at the time and never noticed enough of a difference to care. I ran some 1ml samples and some 1.1ml samples and the titration difference was so slight that it was within my normal range of error and rounding. But my batches are a lot smaller than some (130-135L), so my errors don't multiply out like they would in a 300L+ batch.
 
Location: Southern WI, USA | Registered: May 18, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I must say ---well, well, well, I hope I haven't started an argument here! Would it be correct then to say one should immediately titrate after adding the acid to be absolutely accurate ? I see the jist of it now, so as Biotom says the titration goes up when the acids added so does one calculate that the acid stays in it's volume as it is throughout the Ist stage if no draining occurs ?????? Takes some thought eh Confused
 
Location: Nottingham in England | Registered: August 01, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Pj Big Grin we never argue on the AE thread although as you can see there are differing opinions, Fabricator is a much respected and experianced person with lage batch processing. Acid adds 2.2 T KOH for each ml/ltr of oil, easy to check this, add 1.or 2 ml of acid to new oil then do titration on it. the acid will drop to the bottom if you don't use too much methanol. I always drain the black junk from the bottom of the processor after AE then remix and titrate. leaving the acid in adds more water to the base stage when it is neutralised by the caustic, and you know I'm sure that that will affect the biodiesel yield since soap making and transesterfication happen at the same time.


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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All this is very educational and well worth paying attention to because what we're all after is to produce 100% quality fuel at the minimum cost. Thanks for this because I'm more aware what's happening & next time I have to do the acid process I'll be for-warned what's GOING to hapen... So just to have a little re-cap. When the T is seen to be 2 -2.5 KOH after 1 to 2 hours or so the Ist stage is complete. If I settle then drain an amount of liquid off at the bottom drain the next Base stage will react better or should I say more efficiently due to less acid being present in the contents left in the Processor..... ? I noted that it was said that it's wise to not put too much methanol into the Ist acid stage and the correct amount would be about 10% of the oil to be processed. As it happens I put 10lts Meth in 175 lts oil after putting in the 210 ml acid which is supposed to be 98% (H2SO4) so I think I seem to be heading in the right direction.

Very Very many thanks to everyone.. regards Mick Big Grin
 
Location: Nottingham in England | Registered: August 01, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I live to serve.
 
Location: West Michigan | Registered: April 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Fabricator -- Thanks a million.... About Acid method ---About three years ago there was a USA farmer --Antifuel1 & I took notice of him & think way back then did I see some posts by you and Dave K ???? Because some of my oil was (I thought) quite bad at 7 KOH and the fact that he seemed to be able to process his fuel by the acid method in a very straight forward way without a lot of baffling data which I could easily understand. His oil wasn't bad at 4Na... A British chap cross questioned me asking why I did the acid method with my not too bad oil & I replied that the yield was better & I thought the professionals did this method in the 'States' even to oil as good as 2KOH.

One item I made a mistake on is the fact that when processing one cannot cut down on the adequate amount of KOH and Methanol to be able to make passable fuel , especially using it 'neat' in the common rail engines. Smile Best regards Mick
 
Location: Nottingham in England | Registered: August 01, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I pretty much owe everything I know about AE to Dave Kennny, up till his method you were as likely to end up with a processor full of glop, with this method I have never had a bad batch, that is by now about 20-25 thousand gallons.
I've been meaning to check up on the whole batch demeth some blokes on that side of the pond (pioneered by Graham Lanning) were experimenting with a couple years ago, but my process is running so well it would have to work pretty good to change anything.
 
Location: West Michigan | Registered: April 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Fabricator --- Your processor is as big (I bet) as My 8 ft x 3ft diameter storage vestle so I suppose it would be useful to not have to handle the glycerol seperately as I do when I have to drain this off & then transfer it into my distillation unit ( 2 s/s bear barrels welded together with an 8 inch rolled bit between them) to give me the headroom when it's up to capacity. Lugging the 5 gall containers with the glyc in them keeps me fit but makes me knackered but it works and the benefit is I retain the poison to use again..... but it's nice to know I get a free batch out of a 44 gal barrel of meth... Just going to check if that batch I was asking about needs no further processing...... Catch you later Mick
 
Location: Nottingham in England | Registered: August 01, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by fabricator:

I just do a simple titration, 10ml 99% ISO, 4 drops turmeric, 1ml of the oil to be tested, I have a solution made up of 1ml sulfuric to 1L of distilled water as the titrant, simply add the acid solution until you get a dark red end point as in the normal ffa titration, that tells me how many more ml of acid to neutralize the remaining caustic.




I am a little confused here--

Shouldn't we be using the acid titrant to return the already dark red solution of bio/ISO/turmeric to yellow in order to determine how much acid is needed to neutralize the bio (and therefore the residual in the processor) ? I don't see how adding acid will ever cause the turmeric indicator to change to dark red.

Tnx,

ReM


B100--
2004 Motorhome CatC7
1987 Mercedes 190D 2.5 Turbo(possibly for sale)
1983 VW Pick-up (Caddy) 1.6 Turbo
Southern Oregon
 
Registered: May 23, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by ReM:
quote:
Originally posted by fabricator:

I just do a simple titration, 10ml 99% ISO, 4 drops turmeric, 1ml of the oil to be tested, I have a solution made up of 1ml sulfuric to 1L of distilled water as the titrant, simply add the acid solution until you get a dark red end point as in the normal ffa titration, that tells me how many more ml of acid to neutralize the remaining caustic.




I am a little confused here--

Shouldn't we be using the acid titrant to return the already dark red solution of bio/ISO/turmeric to yellow in order to determine how much acid is needed to neutralize the bio (and therefore the residual in the processor) ? I don't see how adding acid will ever cause the turmeric indicator to change to dark red.

Tnx,

ReM


Yeah that was just a brain fart, Murphy corrected me.
 
Location: West Michigan | Registered: April 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Anybody who uses a water heater for processing and also does acid stage with pump off got a good method of mounting a garden variety type "K" thermocouple so it can read correctly ?

Tnx,

ReM


B100--
2004 Motorhome CatC7
1987 Mercedes 190D 2.5 Turbo(possibly for sale)
1983 VW Pick-up (Caddy) 1.6 Turbo
Southern Oregon
 
Registered: May 23, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Just wanted to chime in with a few successful acid processes recently:

- Beginning T = 19 KOH, 2.8ml acid, ending T (after drain) 5
- Beginning T = 11 KOH, 1.4ml acid, ending T (no drain) 2.6

I've been using a .18 multiplier, and the key (as has been stated often) is dry oil. I couldn't be happier with the results. This thread should win some kind of award.
 
Location: earth | Registered: November 23, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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hey guys,

i decided to do an AE for my science project and came across dkenny's.

i've gone through about 40 pages of the thread and got the acid and base stages down pretty well. i just finished my base stage today and it is looking pretty nice before i left it.

I was wondering, for the wash stage, which techniques did u guys use to wash (or do you even wash)?

also, i was wanted to do a FAME test to compare my yield % to the other students in the class. a chemical test rather than an instrumentation-HPLC,GC test would be much preferred.

I started with a really nice WVO so my T(initial) was about 1. i still did the acid stage anyway just to do it.

I'll continue to read through the pages, but another group who did a water wash shook theirs up and it turned into liquid mayonaise. i was hoping not to do the same! lol thanks!

-T


"imagination is more important than knowledge" - Albert Einstein
 
Registered: September 04, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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