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Thanks for the input. I guess I will just bite the bullet, get off my duff and do some test batches. It is not fair to let you guys do all the work. Retirement has spoiled me. It is nice to just read the forum, get all the answers and make super biodiesel.

As soon as I can find a good (cheap) source of H2SO4 I will try some of the suggested methods and post the results.

In the meantime keep up the good work. Everything I have learned (still learning) about biodiesel has come from this forum. Including unlearning some things I got from JFT Confused way back when.

Tim
 
Location: Central Oregon | Registered: May 17, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Teepee,
mix or no mix...this is one of the questions I hope to answer in this thread. it seems no mixing also works
heat - so far a must.
acid/base/base - or acid/base..why would run a 2nd base stage if the first one passes 27/3? you are testing after the first base stage?

I would think glycerin pretreat..before the first acid would be best. fyi I don't pretreat..add time to a long process. and for what gain? a slight lowering in titration..the acid stage does a better job. now for marginal oils 3-5KOH..might work great.

if you not water washing at all then skip the 5% prewash.



pirocop
if you have enough of this 'bad' oil. I would be curious to know what happens if you use a lower multiplier..say 0.15 instead of the 0.2..does it predict the ending titration..say 65 to 20?
when you say you drain all the glycerin after the first acid stage..it this volume equal to the methanol you started with or about 1/2 the methanol. I hope its closer to 1/2 otherwise your draining stuff you should be keeping. in your case it would slightly higher than 1/2. maybe 55%

why seal the reactor..Ryan P. suggested a condenser on top..I use a reflux column on top.
yes I have seen the titration drop isn't as great if there's not enough methanol.
when you run the first stage are you using 65-20*0.2 = mls of acid? or 65-3*0.2 ?

fabricator,
you're wondering the same thing that I am..maybe since Biotom keeps his heating element on this is causing a slight stirring. hopefully other that heat/mix on a noncontinuous basis will chime will speak up?


-dkenny


'84 bluebird school bus, DD8.2L turbo( 4/2011, the bus tranny has died..Frown 8.23.11 bus driven to scrap yard Frown )
2006 Jeep Liberty CRD Smile - the wife's
99 dodge 2500 5.9l 24v..-mine Smile
everything run B100 when its warm enough Smile
 
Location: RTP, North Carolina | Registered: December 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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dkenny,

Roger the second base, makes sense. So far I have only run single base batches. They came out OK but were not consistent and not all passed 3/27. From what I have read here I have not been testing often or soon enough.

Anyway I want to get a good understanding of Yours and Tom's methods before I start.

One thought, Even though I pass 3/27 after Acid/base and don't do a 5% prewash won't there still be some glycerin when you don't stop the reaction? If so will it settle out with the soap after the methanol is removed?

Tim
 
Location: Central Oregon | Registered: May 17, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The reason why the WVO is 65 KOH, is because they are from the water pipe! China is a different story when dealing with WVO, most of the waste oil are from the pipe. Then those WVO dealers dig the oil from the pipe and boil them to make WVO, and sell them. It's expansive WVO =( However I am planning of starting business turning these WVO to BD.

Anyway I used the (65-3)*0.2 = 12.4 ml formula for the first acid stage. I think when I was doing the 1 liter patch, i tried 10ml and the result was the same, end up at around 20KOH to 18 KOH. Acid is really cheap down here, i figure using more is not a problem.

First acid stage, i alway drain all the Gly, regardless of the volume of the methanol. I just drain all the black stuff until i see color change. Back when i was doing 1 liter test, I had a poorer result if i only drain half of the Gly (half of the volumne of the methnaol) =(. However I don't drain anything for the second acid stage though. Maybe it was the temperature that affect the results, next time I will try the temperature around 60 degree C for the whole time.

Shall I drain all the Gly from the first acid stage? Or just 50%? (currently i drain 100%)
Shall I drain any Gly from the second acid stage? (currently I don't drain any)

About sealing the reactor, I think you guys using venturi to suck the menthanol back inside. But how about during settling? The pump is not running during settling, the methanol will escape from the vent, shall I seal the reactor during settling?

about Demeth, can i mix the acid stage GLY with the base stage gly then demeth all together? Will I end up with low purity methanol this way?
 
Registered: November 08, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I normally put my 10 KOH oil aside in a steel drum and add metanol and acid, shake it up and leave for a few days depending on how busy I am. Without mixing and heat (ambient has been around 16C -18C)By the time I'm ready for it it's around T5, transfer to processor and after 3 hours of heat and mix it's T2.

Something that is being ignored, I think, is that the very act of adding methanol and later more methanol will lower T regardless of heat and time simply because the T sample is being diluted by 10% and more.
 
Registered: August 08, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Ryan and dkenny

I still having trouble understand how you guys setup the condensor.

If you are putting condensor at the top, are you putting it vertically above the reactor? And how do you make the methanol drop back into the tank? No menthanol will escape? What if the reactor is like 300 gallon?

can you be more detail of how you attach the condensor to the reactor? Sounds like it's going to be different than the way the GL processor looks.

Are you guys using venturi at all?

Sorry about the off topics, but not letting methanol escape is very important in the acid stage, result will be huge if there are not enough methanol.
 
Registered: November 08, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Oh...I wish I had a good picture.

Anyway, I don't even have a condenser, so much, as just a length of tubing that is at room temperature that runs nearly straight up and out of the processor and then mates to the vent tube that goes outside. Methanol fumes that happen to make their way out of the processor will hit that 4' of cool tubing, condense, and, since the tube is vertical, run right back down and back into the processor.

But there is almost no methanol that can escape. There was a HUGE issue discussed on here a couple years ago about this, and every test showed that the air volume in the processor is basically static: unless you are actively introducing air to the tank or boiling methanol with your heater, no measurable amount of methanol, or any gas, will escape. Even the most violent mixing imaginable produces something like 0.1-0.5% methanol loss: less loss than the error present in measuring the methanol volume to begin with.

I don't think reactor size matters, except perhaps for the vent tubing being that much larger to match, and maybe more likely to catch a stiff breeze from outside and draw out/in some gaseous volume.

And I don't have a venturi...I suppose if your are constantly introducing air through the venturi, then methanol loss could be much more of an issue.
 
Location: Southern WI, USA | Registered: May 18, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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pirocop,

think of this condenser as a methanol trap. instead a condenser for methanol recovery.

yes the pipe runs vertically out of the top of the reactor. reactor size doesn't matter. just the temperature of the pipe must be below the boiling point of methanol.

-dkenny


'84 bluebird school bus, DD8.2L turbo( 4/2011, the bus tranny has died..Frown 8.23.11 bus driven to scrap yard Frown )
2006 Jeep Liberty CRD Smile - the wife's
99 dodge 2500 5.9l 24v..-mine Smile
everything run B100 when its warm enough Smile
 
Location: RTP, North Carolina | Registered: December 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I have a newbie question.

I have processed close to 3,000 of Bio that titrated at 4 at the highest.
I was given a contract for oil that titrates at 14.
Having never done a acid/base process, here is where I get confused.

I understand the formula and mixing the acid with 60% of the meth and mix with the acid.
After I get the titration that I need, do I mix the needed KOH with the remaining 40% of the meth?
Do I have to drain anything between stages?
I can keep the oil heated at a max of 145 degrees.

here is the formula that I think I should be using.
T-3*.16

So I have 400L of oil titrating at 14.
T-3=11
11*.16=1.76ML per L of oil.
20% meth= 20 gallons that I normally use to process.

So, I would mix 12 gallons of meth with 704ML of Acid. then mix that with 400L (100G)of oil heated at 145 degrees?
then mix the remaining 8 gallons of meth with the needed KOH for the base process without draining anying from the Acid process?

Any help with this would be great.

Thanks,
Danny


05 CRD and 07 Dodge 2500. Both on B100
 
Location: Fort Myers, Florida | Registered: November 30, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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A T of 14 is on the cusp of what the current formula calls for a draining. It may or may not be neccessary. Your ending T will determine if you need to or not. After draining, I have seen a T drop of 3 additional grams. If you do drain, only drain half of the methanol you put in, but you will need to replace the amount that you drain with fresh methanol. Just add that amount to your ME mix
 
Registered: May 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:

Do I have to drain anything between stages?
I can keep the oil heated at a max of 145 degrees.

Danny


I think your formula will work very well. When I work with oil that titrates that high, I do let it settle with the heat on for about an hour after I get to the titration level I want. I usually get about a gallon or two of really ugly, smelly, watery crap from about 100 gallons. Then add the methoxide and mix. That said, when I use the auto program on the BioPro, there is no drain cycle.

Norman
 
Location: Lincoln, NE | Registered: April 10, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hookline, Norman,
At what point do I titrate? when it is mixing, or after it has settles for a while?
reason being that I an going to mix and settle in a water heater and will not be able to titrate any oil if it has settled since I will not access to any oil from the top.
If I can titrate while it is mixing, that would be perfect.

I also understand that I only need to mix for 15-20 minutes or just long enough for the introduction of the meth/acid into the oil?
Or do I have to mix it for a great deal of time?

Thanks,
Danny


05 CRD and 07 Dodge 2500. Both on B100
 
Location: Fort Myers, Florida | Registered: November 30, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Titrate while mixed. The acid and methanol will bond with water and being more dense sink. Titrating mixed is the only way to get an accurate T
T answer the other question..is mixing necessary. It seems that it is not, but constant heat is. The last 2 batches I have done without much mixing beyond the introduction of the methanol acid mix, and they worked as good if not better.
 
Registered: May 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Since I am using a water heater and preheating the oil to 145. It should stay hot enough to do s full reaction correct?

I don't like to keep the heating element on if I am not mixing since it is located on the bottom where the meth will likely end up.

Or do I have to leave the heating element on?

Thanks again,
Danny


05 CRD and 07 Dodge 2500. Both on B100
 
Location: Fort Myers, Florida | Registered: November 30, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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emiperformance,

what they said..

please post your results.. if you can batch by batch..
you also might try one using 0.15 instead of 0.16..dependingon results 0.17..

but start with 0.16.

make sure the oil is dry.

-dkenny


'84 bluebird school bus, DD8.2L turbo( 4/2011, the bus tranny has died..Frown 8.23.11 bus driven to scrap yard Frown )
2006 Jeep Liberty CRD Smile - the wife's
99 dodge 2500 5.9l 24v..-mine Smile
everything run B100 when its warm enough Smile
 
Location: RTP, North Carolina | Registered: December 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Empire, as long as you can keep the heat up (biotom suggest 130 and above) for 12-24 hrs, there shouldnt be any need to have the element on
 
Registered: May 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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good work guys, this is getting more interesting all the time. hooknline, good posts SmileTom


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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we are using a different modifier now? i thought it's 2...now it's 0.16, 0.17?

Btw, how high NAOH T is acceptable? I never try my nasty oil with NAOH, only tried KOH.

I am planning to swith to NAOH instead of KOH, as it is easier to remove soap and cheaper. But when shall i start the base? Can I do it if the NAOH T is 6 to 8?
 
Registered: November 08, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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priocop
you can start base at the T you indicated, but you will have much more byproduct as a result, and less bio. as you know, the base process produces h2o and the combined with the higher ffa will result in more soap But, give it a try, let us know how you make out. I like to get T as low as possable, 1.5 - 1.7 usually. sometimes as low as .75 from a starting T of 8 - 9 Tom
-PS T using naoh will be lower, than T using koh


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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priocop'

I also want to try KaOH for better soap recovery on my GL processor. I have read that 4-5 T is as high as you should go with KaOH. It does not handle high T oil As well as KOH. HTH

Tim
 
Location: Central Oregon | Registered: May 17, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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