Pirocop,

Use propeller mixing instead of pump mixing. It will use about 1/10 the power.

pirocop,

yes, that's one of the things that Biotom does different. mixes until it mixed then turns off the pump. some how you need to keep the mix close to normal mixing temps.



-dkenny

quote:

Ryan P

9ml KOH (assumed, didn't actually check, just knew it needed it since the last batch was a 9ml from same tote)

3.2ml KOH after 5 days of mixing twice a day for 3hrs, 6hr apart. I just set my timer for 6hr of mixing daily, two 3hr periods separated by 6hrs and let it go all week.

That is actually a bit better than I have been doing lately...typically I only get down to 5-5.5ml with the same general mixing scheme.

Pirocop..I have tried not constant mixing the last 2 batches, and it works, but as said, you need to keep the heat up. The only reason I mixed is to get accurate titrations. I was babysitting it all weekend and took a T every half hour after letting it sit overnight with no mixing.
Ryan, what did you end up using for a multiplier?

quote:

what did you end up using for a multiplier?

Oops, sorry: .16

thanks.
tom, yiled appears to be 91% or so. 59 gallons of fuel from 65 gallons oil

Ryan P,
are you heating? I didn't see it mentioned.

-dkenny

Yeah; the thermostat, heating element, and the pump were all plugged into the timer, so when the timer kicked on for 3 hrs at a time, the heat would be brought back up to the 130F that the thermostat cuts out at.

hooknline

I'm sure this is more than you where getting using base/base ? I typically get 143ltr from 150ltr of oil this is 95% could get more if I settled the byproduct overnight but that is just too time consuming. When I open a pail of byproduct, there's about 3/4" of bio sitting on top. easy to recover in the winter, just set outside for a couple days then lift the bio pancake off the top Cheap is was got me into this IF you do another acid batch and decide to acid twice, drain a couple ltr off (plan this and add acouple extra ltr of wvo at the start then you will still process the full amount) between acid stages, this will cut down on the h2o and sould increase your % Keep us posted Tom

yeah, its about 10% more

Hi Guys,

Just when I think I have this all figured out you give me some more great points-of-view. Biotom has been giving me some fantastic help (thanks Tom) through PM’s

I would like some votes on all the different procedures
Mix or no mix
Heat or no heat
Acid/base/base or Acid/base
Glycerin pre treat after second base or not

I have a GL Eco processor and want to start acid treatment to bring my T down low enough to start using NaOH. I like using KOH but it makes it more difficult to remove the soap when using the GL system.

Will the water from the acid treatment be a problem with the GL? Will it drop out with the bi-product? Tom suggests that I not use the 5% prewash also.

Any ideas on using acid/base/base with a GL Eco Processor

Thank for your input.

Tim

Teepee,

If you are talking about doing an 80/20 for the base/base, that couldn't hurt.

I don't think the pretreatment would do much for you after the acid stage other than neutralize the acid and rob some of the methanol from your BD/oil mix.

I would do the pretreatment before the acid stage. This will add some methanol to your oil and some additional product to convert. Of course if you are reclaiming methanol and doing acid stage, you probably would be better off not pretreating at all, unless your oil is really nasty.

heat..yes
mix or not...I have had success with just mixing enough to get the acid in, and then letting sit for 8-18 hours
acid/base/base...yes if needed. It can only help conversion
glycerine pretreat( either before or after acid)... I have tried using glycerine after acid way and it just ends up taking more time, robbing methanol as metioned, and making more soap. Using the glycerine and then acid, I think would just cause more acid to be needed for results as the residiual caustic will neutralize some of the acid. That is theory though, as I dont think that anyone has tried it yet.

thanks for the advice guys.

I can only use pump to mix =(, it's GL processor.

Since I have to do 2 acid stages, the first acid stage i have to drain all gly. Any idea how long i have to settle before draining all the gly?

I am hoping for a more speedy 2 acid stage process, the current procedure I have is very slow =( Takes like 2 days to get the 65KOH down to 8KOH

one more question that i never got answer.... When we doing acid stage, can we SEAL the reactor completely? Will it produce alot of pressure and create problems? Because if we don't seal it, lots of methanol will escape, consider the temperature, mixing time and settling time. I am not sure if you guys notice that if there are less methanol in the reactor, the acid stage will have poorer result.



Let me list out my procedure, see if you guys help to reduce the time, cost and...improve my safty for the procedure:

1) Acid stage, 65 KOH, use Dkenny's formula which is 60% methanol + 12.4ml per liter (LOTS OF ACID very dangerous)

2) mix it for 24hours, settle for 12 hours, drain the ALL the Gly (wasted alot of methanol, do you guys think I really have to drain all the gly?), I get it down to 20koh or 15koh this way.

3) second acid stage, follow Dkenny's formula, mix for 12 hours and I get down to 8 koh.

4) I didn't drain anything and start the base reaction.

5) The biodiesel looks good, but I used alot more methanol and KOH during reaction. Even though I can Demeth, but the KOH cost is too high...

Hoping for some more advice =) I really want to reduce the time and cost.

thanks

quote:

can we SEAL the reactor completely?

I don't like the ideal of ever sealing the reactor. Better to add a condenser of some sort to the outlet so any methanol vapor that does make its way toward out, condenses and drips back in. I have a 4' length of clear hose between my vent and the outside. And vapor than makes its way into the hose is running right back down and into the processor.

The only time my processor is sealed is when I am drawing vacuum or building pressure to fill or empty.

I would settle for 2 hrs before draining.
Mixing, I tried mixing only the time it took to get the methanol acid mix in, and let it sit for 12 hrs. Then remixed to get an accurate titration and it worked like a charm. Biotom has suggested that the no mix setup is temp dependant, and it seems to be accurate. if you can maintain a good temp 115f or better, than try the no mix method
As to the sealed reactor, it depends on what the reactor vessel is. The apple seeds WH can take more pressure than we can create using the chemicals we do.

pirocop
thats a lot of acid did you do this all in one stage? seems to me this would work better using multiple acid stages, with a small drainoff between each. you don't have to take much when I drain into a white bucket, I cam see the h2o on the bottom.
-how did you loose the methanol? the methanol that is added in the acid stage is still there for the processing stages. you just have less methanol to mix with the KOH than you would have useing base/base processing.
-Mixing is not required for the whole acid stage. as hooknline mentioned, just long enough tho mix the chemicals in. I cieculate the tank throught the pump 5 Times, Takes about 20 min for 150ltr using the NT pump. 65 KOH Don't eat there!!!
-It's great that you where able to do this and post the results here. What you've shown is high T wvo can be used. do you have enough for another batch.?
-the increase in the volume of bio you get following the acid process more than makes up for the cost of acid you have to use. you also have savings on the amount of KOH you use. Can you imagine KOH 8.5 + 65/ ltr that would be high costing bio Tom

hooknline
try to keep the heat between 130 and 140f that will result in a lower T and your right, mixing throughout the acid process is not required, I'm not sure if that would affect the finnal T but it my. seems to me that the mix just likes to sit (just like me ) Tom

Truthfully I don't see how adding the acid and letting sit can work, if you just run the pump enough to get the acid in the mix and then shut down, how is the entire volume of oil being exposed to acid/methanol? It does not seem like convection currents from heating would be enough.

fabricotor
once the acid and methanol are mixed with the wvo, they do not seperate as long as the heat is on. if the heat is not kept on the methanol will separate and float on top I don't know why, but thats what happens without the methanol in the mix, esterfication will not happen. I don't see any advantage to running the pump. My last batch Friday, started T 8 and after acid treatment T 1.125 (usually 1.5 - 1.7) The next Bach I do this week end, I will leave the pump on and we can compare the results Tom