Buckeye,

well I recieved it twice this time. how much total time.

buckeye

.025 and .0175 look very good with an ending T of 1. how much time @ 3.25? (bottom scale)

Hard to say, the temp kept getting shut off when the power would go out. I will have to run the test again to be sure. I would guess 48 hours for 3.25, but probably less. I need to rerun the test with the same sample and with uninterrupted heat.

I did try to increase the temp this go around and I think it had a good effect but didn't work out so well with the electric turning off :P

I followed this thread at the start and then got behind, but in speed reading over the last few pages it seems that things may have changed a bit with this method.
I usually get quite good wvo but as it's getting harder to find I'm looking at other sources now and may need to try AE if some of it is higher titrating stuff.

Would one of you be kind enought to write up the latest version of 'how to' for AE please?

I don't need a full write up just acid multiplier folks use, is it(0.1?) use now and is methanol (10%)and is mix and leave it, or just keep mixing it preferred? and preferred temp?

Others can correct me, but I have been trying to keep a summary of the most effective points even if I haven't taken the time to follow all of the nuances of some of the experiments:

quote:

acid multiplier folks use, is it(0.1?)

Seemingly; if you are less stringent about drying your oil (which will become apparent if .1 is not working), then going higher can compensate for the bit of water in the oil.

quote:

use now and is methanol (10%)

Yep. And again, if you run your oil a bit damp, bumping this to 11% or 12% can help compensate.

quote:

and is mix and leave it, or just keep mixing it preferred?

Mix and leave. Personally, I set a timer to kick the heater and pump on together once a day for 3hrs, just to keep the temp up and mix it all over once in a while. Seems to be the best "bang for the buck"; best result with minimum electricity used.

quote:

and preferred temp?

Hotter the better, to a point. If you can set up your vent to reflux, then as long as you aren't losing methanol, your good. I just bumped my thermostat set temp up to 135F, so I'll see if my results are in line with others. If so, I might bump it again to 145F.

All my batches have leveled out at 3.8-4ml KOH. If the extra temp. drops that a bit more: SWEET!

Chug, .10 down to .05 seems to work very effectively so long as you maintain a minimum temp of 145F and multipliers as low as .0175 can work well at temps above 155F. Time can be a factor, as can starting T and frankly we are still playing with multipliers and can't be certain what is 'best' yet.

Mixing has a definate negative effect on ending T after initial blending. Leave it sit until the reaction is finished.

Biotom or Dkenny would be the likely candidates to do a write up on a new formula, although I don't think we are there yet, first the multiplier(s) needs to be quantified, then temp(s), and finally the amount of methonal.

The big key as Dkenny, Biotom, and others on this thread figured out is any trace water = NO to SLOW AE reaction. Make sure your oil is completely dry and you should do great.

thanks guys,

that is pretty much as I understood it from a quick butchers over the last half dozen pages, but it's nice to get confirmation.

Good work on developing this method Dave, Tom, Bucky, Fab et al

Ryan Buckeye

-good posts, I can see your getting the process down !


Chug

-to start, use a .1 multiplier, and 12% of the total methanol in the acid stage. when this works for you, you can start to cut back on the methanol.
-the safest way to add the chemicals, is to add methanol first, mix for 5 min. then add the acid, and mix for another 5 min or so, then let stand, heat on, as close to 145f as you can get, lower heat well work, but it my take a bit longer. stand for 12 - 16 hrs.
-if you run into any problems, you can post them here, or PM me and we will get them sorted out. Tom

-Too soon to rewrite the proceedure, we have to get all the ducks in line first!

Another thing Chug,
It doesn't matter if you add your acid to the methanol then to the oil or Methanol to oil then acid to the combined mixture.

If your processor is capable of adding the acid as Biotom suggests, that's gonna be safer. If you need to add the acid to the methanol first in order to introduce it, be sure to add it VERY SLOWLY. It will boil the methanol some. If you add it fast, it can boil it enough to spit acidic methanol back out of your jug at you: hence the "irresponsible" comment.

For the reaction itself, it won't effect the final outcome either way.

I believe what Biotom is referencing is the violent reaction when adding the acid to the methonal, unfortunately I now have a great deal of experience with this running so many test samples as there is no way to accurately measure such small amounts of acid to put in each individual sample :P

In other words be very careful if you plan to premix the methonal and acid.

Or you can take the safer route by adding the methonal first to your dry WVO and then slowly and carefully add the acid. Still dangerous but it won't have anywhere near the violent reaction of pre-mixing.

Don't let this discern you from the AE process, if you take all precautions you will be ok.

The more time that goes by the less low titrating WVO we will have available as big biodiesel companies take it all up (not a bad thing overall, just makes it tough for us to get good WVO)

If we don't get comfortable with the AE process we may find it harder and harder to continue making our own fuel, and none of us want that.

Good luck on your first AE, and post back with any questions, and most importantly your results!

Ryan
-thanks for jumping in here.
-In addition,
-heat generated from the chemical reaction may ignite explosion
-combination liberates gaseuos products, including both flammable and toxic gases. May cause pressurization
-Exothermic reaction. These are a couple points I have pulled from a chemical compatability chart posted by DR Saraf on another site. Tom

And Biotoms post is right on the money, this can be dangerous stuff and when initially mixed it can react violently, mix directly in the oil if you can, could save your eyebrow/arm/leg/face/marraige/etc.

Perhaps I should have been a bit more thorough in my post. I guess I should have added, "Standard safety precautions applicable to base transesterification are also applicable to acid esterification". Maybe I should add a safety disclaimer to my signature line.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Double D,

Hehe.

I think Chug has been around the block a couple of times. Heck he is the proponent of WBD which is advanced in my opinion. Maybe that was for the benefit of someone that is just starting out. Go figure.

I understood what you were saying and surely anyone who has been reading this thread from the beginning would understand as well.

Anyone who produces BD had best research the hell out of it first.

Yeah OK, I read it as 'one with a little BD experience' and DD was aware of this but it doesn't hurt to point the facts out now and then either, and talking of disclaimers I use this one in my signature on the goat forum.

DISCLAIMER:
Safety is your own responsibility, satisfy yourself it's safe, don't take my word for it!

but getting back on topic
Thanks for your input folks, will the sulf acid be ok with plastic that is ok with methoxide?

as it would be easy to add it via my sight gauge after sucking the methanol in with the venturi, just gotta find some bad oil now, always the way eh, I've usually avoided it before!

most o you seem to be using KOH anyone use NaOH?
And if using NaOH is the -3 from original titration figure still applicable?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Chug,

Chug,

My last AE batch was with NaOH and I used T-2; however since the goal is to reduce the T to 1, I am not sure what the multiplier should be. I have mostly been following this thread. Like you, my oil is typically too good to run AE.

One other thing that I just thought about.

what are you folks using as a minimum for High T wvo?

I process wvo with T's of up to about 7 - 8g NaOH ok, although with a slightly lower yield using my modified 2 stage reaction or modified base/base (single stage reaction with 2 stage methoxide injection, but no 1st stage glyc drain)

7g NaOH = 9.8g KOH
8g NaOH = 11.2 KOH

so I'm thinking anything over 7g NaOH or 10g KOH would benefit from EA
does anyone bother use EA on lower T wvo?

Also can some of the discrepancies with amounts of acid needed just be down to the difference in strength between those using 98% and those user lower concentrations?

DoubleD, Chug, Buckeye

-I removed my post from yesterday, I was under the impression that chug was a neewbe. Sorry about that Chug.
-the reason I am so adamant when it comes the adding the chemicals, I had the methanol/sulfuric acid explode on me (very violent reaction). Lucky for me I was wearing a face shield, had running water within reach, and two box of baking soda!!
-in the end, the mix dissolved part of the leg of my jeans, and the top of one shoe. Very scary so if you think I over reacted, this is the reason. I apologize if I ruffled any feathers
Buckeye
-thanks for your support, I realize I can’t dictate how people do things, So I’ll just end by saying this can be dangerous, please play safe. The new write up will have to address the safety issues Tom

Chug
-as you know, in the normal base/base process all ffa are converted into soap so the higher the ffa content the lower the yield, the harder it will be to wash and so on.
-For me I do AE on every batch, yes it takes longer,but it was the only way I could get consistant rsults in the base/base process.
-for now the amount of acid is anywhere from .75 - 2 they all work! the more acid you use the higher the ending T will be, this stuff has to be neutralized the the caustic in the base stage. the higher the acid amount the faster the conversion will take place. so it all depends on you, I use .1 it works very well, but takes 12 -14 hrs. If I was pressed for time I would bump up the acid amount. Having said that, you can see by buckeyes graphs, most acid amounts under test have very similar ending T given time. Tom