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Can a batch be reprocessed with acid after a signle phase reaction? I did not get good conversion and created some soap, forgot to check for water! I did heat to 140 over night, but must have not drain quit enough out.
 
Location: St Cloud | Registered: March 01, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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A batch can always be reprocessed - you can reprocess 100% soap to biodiesel with acid. All thats necessary is to remove all water.
 
Location: Scotland | Registered: March 19, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Rfaloh
-NO No, wet wvo and Acid Esterfication do not work!For AE to work properly, the water contemt of the wvo should be 500 ppm or less, that is pass HPT no bubbles. I would just do a normal base repo on this batch and accept the lower yield Tom


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Thanks you for your comments!!.. will give it shot!
 
Location: St Cloud | Registered: March 01, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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What is the best tool for testing water percentage, the Sandy B. kit?
 
Location: St Cloud | Registered: March 01, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Rfaloh
sandy b if you an afford it!, but I just use the hot pan test. I use a large mixing type spoon, add wvo and heat from the bottom with a small propane tourch. If the wvo is wet you will see bubbles, if dry (500 ppm or less) you can heat it all the way to smoke temp and no bubbles will appear. Tom


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Back to the bad soapy batch, I reloaded into the reactor and took a sample. I started heating it and at 112 or so it started foaming and bubbling no poping or splatter. After 240+ the foam evaporated. Is the foam soap and the bubbles meth? There was no visible water at the bottom of the pan! Any ideas anyone!
 
Location: St Cloud | Registered: March 01, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Rfaloh
-you can't do the hot pan test once the methanol is in, when you start heating, the methanol boils off causing bubbles and foam. Tom


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Thank you Tom, that's what I thought!
 
Location: St Cloud | Registered: March 01, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Biotom:
Rfaloh
-you can't do the hot pan test once the methanol is in, when you start heating, the methanol boils off causing bubbles and foam. Tom


Tom, boy I'm really frustrated now!!.. I think the batch is far gone.. If anyone has any idea I would appreciate the input: First, I made a batch without thinking that T at 8.5 NaOH, Did the normal base/process. Settle over night and there must have been a little water because I had lots of gel/soapy stuff in the glyersol layer. So, I then reprocessed with acid to lower the T's, which reduced to T3.75 and let settle and drained a little. I then reprocessed using 1gm/25mL per liter of oil, reacted for 4.5hrs and nothing, no separation at all. Test for separation and still have the same amount of fallout!!. I boiled off the methanol in a pan sample and as soon as it cooled it turned into a thick maple syrup!! Man, I think the fat has song the song of defeat!!
 
Location: St Cloud | Registered: March 01, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Make another batch of decent stuff and mix the glycerol from it into the bad batch. If that doesnt cure it nothing will.
 
Location: Scotland | Registered: March 19, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Thank you for the reminder, I read something about that!!

Rick
 
Location: St Cloud | Registered: March 01, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Rick
-I was a bit confused after reading your PM this morning, but now it is more clear!! You did base process then followed that with AE, that just can't be done! you already had the caustic in the batch, and when you add acid that caustic is neutralized by the acid. Eek So now you have lowered the T, neutralized the caustic and still need to get the process to move further to the right to completion. Don't fret, I don't think there is any way you can screw up a batch of biodiesel so bad that it has to be turfed! What to do now, first draw off a 1 ltre sample, check T and dr pepper process using a normal amount of methanol and caustic for that T. (the batch will be methanol rich, but that can be recovered.) If that works, drain the byproduct from your processor and do that step on the big batch.if not adjust the caustic up or down and repeat utill you can pass 3/27. Be carfull here, make sure the small batch works first you don't want 350 gallons of gel biodiesel soap in the processor. Tom


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Is it possible that the batch is overdosed with methanol? If that's the case the glycerin won't fallout and stays suspended in the bio.
 
Location: western new york | Registered: November 19, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I thought the same thing, so I took a sample and pan boiled the methanol out of it and as it started to cool, it turned into a gel like consistency. If that's the case, If I move the batch into the demethylation reactor I figure it would gel up in there!! Not really a good idea for me!
Thoughts?

Rick
 
Location: St Cloud | Registered: March 01, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Tom in your email you said to try this step:
Another approach would be to neutralize the caustic after the batch passes 3/27. Neutralizing the caustic should release the biodiesel from the soap formation, without caustic you won’t have any soap.(you may be able to reclaim the methanol at this point) Try this in a dr pepper size batch, just titrate using sulfuric acid solution to determine how much acid is needed the drop the ph to 7. then continue with the water wash. Tom

Does anyone have the proceedure for "
titrate using sulfuric acid solution to determine how much acid is needed the drop the ph "? would it be the same proportions as normal T, but use sulfuric acid instead?
 
Location: St Cloud | Registered: March 01, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Rick
–sorry for the tardy response, this week has been very hectic trying to get some orders out before the ice roads close for this year. Yes, we have lots of roads that are built every year across frozen bogs, rivers and lakes, to remote communities.
-To find out how much acid is required mix up the sulfuric acid in distilled water the same way you mix the NaoH or KOH solution 1ml/1ltr. Mix up a normal T sample IPA and oil from the processor, then add the T solution until you reach ph 7. You should remove the byproduct before you do this, because neutralizing the byproduct will release ffa’s back into the biodiesel causing it to be slightly to very acidic.
-When you do this, try another dr pepper size batch, and run it through the demeth and then water wash see how it works. Now, you emailed me that you don’t water wash???? I’m not sure about the dry wash stuff, and would hate to give any advise that would screw up your dry wash medium. The person on this board that does acid neutralization followed by dry wash is fabricator, so if he doesn’t chime in here, you should PM him Tom


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Thanks Tom, Ice Road Trucker seen that show! Boy how do you deal with all that cold? I like for snow skiing and then it back to Florida! I will check with Fabricator regarding his process, I don't have an effective way of disposing the wash water, the PD206 goes a long way 2000 gallons per pound before is need regeneration. I have 2-50 lbs filters that’s 200K gallons. That's only .009 cents per gallon! Thanks for the explanation.

Rick
 
Location: St Cloud | Registered: March 01, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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