BIODIESEL & SVO DISCUSSION FORUMS





Sponsors    Biodiesel and SVO Forums Home    Forums  Hop To Forum Categories  Biodiesel  Hop To Forums  Acid Esterification    Timing on time

Moderators: Shaun, The Trouts
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
Timing on time
 Login/Join
 
Member
posted
What do you all think is a good amount of time for acid esterification.
 
Registered: January 04, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
DF
-that depends on the temperature of the mix, at 140f it takes about 12 - 14 hrs, at 165f it takes 2 - 3 hours. Tom


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
and the starting titration. the higher the longer it takes to process.

-dkenny


'84 bluebird school bus, DD8.2L turbo( 4/2011, the bus tranny has died..Frown 8.23.11 bus driven to scrap yard Frown )
2006 Jeep Liberty CRD Smile - the wife's
99 dodge 2500 5.9l 24v..-mine Smile
everything run B100 when its warm enough Smile
 
Location: RTP, North Carolina | Registered: December 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
The major variable is the surface area between the methanol and the oil. Better mixing creates more surface area. Other variables are time, catalyst, temperature and chemical amounts. Everyone's equipment is unique and you will discover what works for you.
 
Location: CO, CA, KS, or FL | Registered: January 17, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
helpinghand,

interesting but for some reason results in AE don't follow this. by that I mean the lower titrations are reached by NOT mixing..strange but that's how it seems.

-dkenny


'84 bluebird school bus, DD8.2L turbo( 4/2011, the bus tranny has died..Frown 8.23.11 bus driven to scrap yard Frown )
2006 Jeep Liberty CRD Smile - the wife's
99 dodge 2500 5.9l 24v..-mine Smile
everything run B100 when its warm enough Smile
 
Location: RTP, North Carolina | Registered: December 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
If you don't mix, the FFA's are extracted up into the methanol layer and it SEEMS like you get higher conversion. You actually don't, you just get more FFA removal. Once the FFA's are UP in the methanol layer they will convert and drop back into the oil. Also if you don't mix then the sulfuric acid may be staying in the methanol and thus the acid value of the oil SEEMS lower since your not titrating acid in the oil.

You can test what I'm saying by mixing 50 methanol with 50 percent oil. Use no catalyst, and just let the layers seperate. Repeat as necessary. Test the acid value of the oil before and after this process and you will see what I'm talking about.
 
Location: CO, CA, KS, or FL | Registered: January 17, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post



Member
posted Hide Post
interesting thinking..
but with acid/methanol/FFA migrating into one layer the FFA's should get converted..just what we want to happen. this would suggest it would be much better to not mix..we're not trying to convert the oil just the FFA..

-dkenny


'84 bluebird school bus, DD8.2L turbo( 4/2011, the bus tranny has died..Frown 8.23.11 bus driven to scrap yard Frown )
2006 Jeep Liberty CRD Smile - the wife's
99 dodge 2500 5.9l 24v..-mine Smile
everything run B100 when its warm enough Smile
 
Location: RTP, North Carolina | Registered: December 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by HelpingHand:
If you don't mix, the FFA's are extracted up into the methanol layer and it SEEMS like you get higher conversion. You actually don't, you just get more FFA removal. Once the FFA's are UP in the methanol layer they will convert and drop back into the oil.


The theory that you're proposing makes perfect sense due to the solubility of methanol and FFA.
That very well may explain why some folks have had good success letting the mixture simmer after initial mixing.
quote:
Also if you don't mix then the sulfuric acid may be staying in the methanol and thus the acid value of the oil SEEMS lower since your not titrating acid in the oil.


Everyone should be thoroughly mixing there processors contents before a titration is performed, so that the titration is an accurate representaion of the processors complete contents.
 
Location: central virginia | Registered: March 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
HH
-ffa's are soluable into methanol,on another forum washing the wvo with methanol is recommended to lower the ffa content, Now if you add acid to the methanol what do you think will happen to the ffa? wether the metanol /acid mix rises or sinks, the ffa will be converted. the tryglierides are not required or part of this reaction Tom


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Tom's reply makes perfect sense too. Taking both of those into perspective it would seem what you want to do is mix the oil just enough to solvent extract the FFA into the methanol layer and then let everything settle. Since this is an equilibrium reaction this would concentrate the FFA/methanol/acid and greatly speed things up. Now what is the minimum amount of methanol we can add to have a phase separation? Would that increase the FFA in the settled layer enough to counteract the decrease in methanol?
 
Registered: February 25, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
I agree with Wilder's summary. Mix, then let seperate. Esterificaiton is a slow reaction (if you want it to go to equilibrium.) I've seen multiple studies that show true equilibrium is not reached for between 12 and 24 hours in various studies. From personal experience, you don't need to wait for true equilibrium to sufficiently get the job done. However the chemist side of me hates to stop a reaction before it's entirely complete. Just do it how you like. There are many ways to skin a cat.
 
Location: CO, CA, KS, or FL | Registered: January 17, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
helpinghand is the opposite of your first post?

no matter how you slice it..the non mixing idle just gain ground because of this thought..

thanks..

-dkenny


'84 bluebird school bus, DD8.2L turbo( 4/2011, the bus tranny has died..Frown 8.23.11 bus driven to scrap yard Frown )
2006 Jeep Liberty CRD Smile - the wife's
99 dodge 2500 5.9l 24v..-mine Smile
everything run B100 when its warm enough Smile
 
Location: RTP, North Carolina | Registered: December 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post



Member
posted Hide Post
You still need to mix well to get a good FFA extraction. To rely soly upon migration to move the FFA's into the methanol layer would be slow. I will concede that in theory you could get a slightly higher yield, but in my opinion that doesn't make it BETTER.

My point was that mixing is beneficial when you condider TIME a cost. I value time. I know most people on this site are looking for the most "energy efficient" solutions, but if you save a peny per gallon on energy, but produce half as much fuel, I'd say your going down the wrong road.

There are many variables. I don't care about being right on this one, because a fraction of a percent difference in conversion doesn't matter if the reaction time is substantially increased.

If you want to interpret was I said as meaning something, that's fine, I don't think it's terribly important. My production technique has produced hundreds of thousands of gallons of fuel in the past year without issue. Other people make fuel without mixing the acid and methanol and they do just fine too.

There are many ways to skin the cat, and when you buy the pelt you don't care how it was done, so long as it worked. If you making pelts, you might want to consider the benifits of higher volume, lower margin production.
 
Location: CO, CA, KS, or FL | Registered: January 17, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
  Powered by Social Strata  
 

Sponsors    Biodiesel and SVO Forums Home    Forums  Hop To Forum Categories  Biodiesel  Hop To Forums  Acid Esterification    Timing on time

© Maui Green Energy 2000 - 2014