BIODIESEL & SVO DISCUSSION FORUMS





Sponsors    Biodiesel and SVO Forums Home    Forums  Hop To Forum Categories  Biodiesel  Hop To Forums  Acid Esterification    after AE ,glycerin won't drop out

Moderators: Shaun, The Trouts
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
after AE ,glycerin won't drop out
 Login/Join
 
Member
posted
I had a successful AE using only 160 cc. of acid on wvo that titrated 11 now its down to 4 ,so I took glycerin from the previous batch and put it in to treat before the base reaction,now after everything has settled for about 5 hours I get wvo from the drain . I can't really tell but I wonder if the glycerin is on the top.
 
Location: western new york | Registered: November 19, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
there is an easy way to find out.

mix the batch then drain a sample out in the glass jar and let it sit.

I don't think the glycerin is on top. its much denser than BD and oil

-dkenny


'84 bluebird school bus, DD8.2L turbo( 4/2011, the bus tranny has died..Frown 8.23.11 bus driven to scrap yard Frown )
2006 Jeep Liberty CRD Smile - the wife's
99 dodge 2500 5.9l 24v..-mine Smile
everything run B100 when its warm enough Smile
 
Location: RTP, North Carolina | Registered: December 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
mix the batch then drain a sample out in the glass jar and let it sit

I did that last night and this morning there was no separation,so the glycerin must be settling to the bottom very quickly. This morning I drained off the same amount I put in, ,I'm having a hard time telling if its glycerin or wvo,because it seems thinner and browner than what I,m used to. Maybe glycerin is like that after AE ?
 
Location: western new york | Registered: November 19, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
A question I have is if there's still some glycerin in the batch,will that hinder the base reaction? I'll stir the batch and do another titration first.
 
Location: western new york | Registered: November 19, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Heatbeater
-more breaking edge experiments Wink
-Your doing another byproduct treatment after AE??? you may need to use and electrical conductivety meter to tell when the by product phase has been drained and you hit the oil/byproduct interface. the wvo is already dark after AE so I can see what your problem is now. With EC once you reach the end of the byproduct the meter will quickly read zero.
Tom


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
How much glycerin did you use? How much methanol did you use in your AE?

More methanol than glycerin=glycerin dissolved in methanol
More glycerin than methanol=methanol dissolved in glycerin
If the glycerin was not demethed you have to take that into account too
Glycerin itself shouldn't hurt the base reaction any so your results may not be a problem, but keep in mind that everything else in the glycerin is also now suspended in your oil (soap, water, othr organics).

My question would be does the base from the glycerin cancel out the acid or is there enough acid left to start converting soap from the glycerin back int FFA which would defeat the purpose of the AE.
 
Registered: February 25, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post



Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Heatbeater
-more breaking edge experiments
-Your doing another byproduct treatment after AE???

The batch before this one I did a glycerin pre-treatment the AE process and was led to believe that was a no-no ,now I'm not supposed to do it after??
 
Location: western new york | Registered: November 19, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
if it helps..

the only time tried glycerin pretreat was before acid but it didn't help..T70 just didn't change enough to notice.

after that I haven't used glycerin pretreat..before or after AE. never saw the need.

bwilder brings up some interesting questions..if not enough base is in the glycerin to neutralize the acid then some of the soap and ram glycerin might be cracked back into FFA..-> bad.

-dkenny


'84 bluebird school bus, DD8.2L turbo( 4/2011, the bus tranny has died..Frown 8.23.11 bus driven to scrap yard Frown )
2006 Jeep Liberty CRD Smile - the wife's
99 dodge 2500 5.9l 24v..-mine Smile
everything run B100 when its warm enough Smile
 
Location: RTP, North Carolina | Registered: December 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
..T70 just didn't change enough to notice

T70 that sets a record. I found some wvo in the back of some eatery that was T 35 and figured it wasn't worth bothering with. Maybe I'm in for some surprises with the pre-treat especially when it comes to water washing. I was surprised how well the AE went with 160 cc. of acid,but things might tip in the other direction after the base reaction ,which I may not get to for a few days.
 
Location: western new york | Registered: November 19, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
you shouldn't have any washing problems.
after the base stage(s) are done..washing is no different than using good oil and normal base processing.


T70 is bad..but not a record. if you read through the long AE thread, Buckeye was processing oil that start at T100 or so. once you get the process down you find that there's lots of oil that people don't want because it 'bad'..I usually take all I can get.

please keep us posted

-dkenny


'84 bluebird school bus, DD8.2L turbo( 4/2011, the bus tranny has died..Frown 8.23.11 bus driven to scrap yard Frown )
2006 Jeep Liberty CRD Smile - the wife's
99 dodge 2500 5.9l 24v..-mine Smile
everything run B100 when its warm enough Smile
 
Location: RTP, North Carolina | Registered: December 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
T70 is bad..but not a record

Can you still get a good yield from wvo that titrates that high?
 
Location: western new york | Registered: November 19, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
yep.

it depends more on the ending titration than the starting titration.

just consider that the FFA from the initial titration are converted to biodiesel.

sure to this high a starting T draining is Required between stages.but it still works..

the higher the starting T the greater the need for methanol recovery. if you want to keep costs down anyway.

-dkenny


'84 bluebird school bus, DD8.2L turbo( 4/2011, the bus tranny has died..Frown 8.23.11 bus driven to scrap yard Frown )
2006 Jeep Liberty CRD Smile - the wife's
99 dodge 2500 5.9l 24v..-mine Smile
everything run B100 when its warm enough Smile
 
Location: RTP, North Carolina | Registered: December 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post



Member
posted Hide Post
ok
during AE..FFA are converted to BD the rest of the oil isn't changed

-dkenny


'84 bluebird school bus, DD8.2L turbo( 4/2011, the bus tranny has died..Frown 8.23.11 bus driven to scrap yard Frown )
2006 Jeep Liberty CRD Smile - the wife's
99 dodge 2500 5.9l 24v..-mine Smile
everything run B100 when its warm enough Smile
 
Location: RTP, North Carolina | Registered: December 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
I drained 3 1/2 cubies from the bottom of this batch two days ago and I see a separation but its brown towards the bottom and black on top about 1/3, and 2/3 's black but to me its wvo because I poured it out and its not thick like glycerin usually is. Can I ran a base reaction and hopefully the pre-treat glycerin will drop out? The problem is there's 15 gallons of the pre-treat glycerin to cope with.
 
Location: western new york | Registered: November 19, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
It is easy to tell if something is glycerine or wvo. Put a little on your fingers and smell it. Does it have a slightly sweet aroma? Glycerine. When you wash your fingers, does it wash right off? Glycerine.

Sometimes, especially with very nice oil, I find the glycerine is very light and clear. It could be mistaken for wvo just looking at it, perhaps. I just started doing AE, so I don't know if this happens when you convert all the ffas, but it strikes me as more likely than that you'd get a distinct bottom layer of WVO after everything you've done.
 
Location: Los Angeles | Registered: May 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
D.S
-there is no glycerine after ae, the ae process converts ffa in wvo to biodiesel. You will drain darkened acidic wvo only and water if the oil was wet. Tom


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
  Powered by Social Strata  
 

Sponsors    Biodiesel and SVO Forums Home    Forums  Hop To Forum Categories  Biodiesel  Hop To Forums  Acid Esterification    after AE ,glycerin won't drop out

© Maui Green Energy 2000 - 2014