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The AE process is sort of new to me. I have used it with some success. I want to understand how the water is formed in the AE process. I've experienced some soap due to this water and I'd like to know how much water is formed. My batches are 40 gallons after drying and I use half of the batch requirement of Methanol (approx 4.5 Gallons) and 1ml/liter WVO (approx. 150ml) sulfuric acid. I feel that I may not have dried the WVO enough and the water from the AE process combined with the original "not dry" water to make elevated water content. Also, how do I adjust for the liquid that is drained off?
I start with 40 Gallons WVO, Dry then top-off to 40 gallons, Dry again for good measure, then start the AE process, Drain unknown amount of liquid, left with less than 40 Gallons of AE processed liquid.
 
Registered: December 05, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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ArticBD
-what is your starting and ending T ?


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Sorry for the delayed response, I got busy. Usually the first T mesurement is approx. 10-15. I usually do a second mesurement after and it drops to approx. 1-6.
 
Registered: December 05, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by ArcticBD:
The AE process is sort of new to me. I have used it with some success. I want to understand how the water is formed in the AE process. I've experienced some soap due to this water and I'd like to know how much water is formed. My batches are 40 gallons after drying and I use half of the batch requirement of Methanol (approx 4.5 Gallons) and 1ml/liter WVO (approx. 150ml) sulfuric acid. I feel that I may not have dried the WVO enough and the water from the AE process combined with the original "not dry" water to make elevated water content. Also, how do I adjust for the liquid that is drained off?
I start with 40 Gallons WVO, Dry then top-off to 40 gallons, Dry again for good measure, then start the AE process, Drain unknown amount of liquid, left with less than 40 Gallons of AE processed liquid.


KOH Titration drop x .32 = grams of water created per liter of oil.
NaOH Titration drop x .44 = grams of water created per liter of oil.

This is based on 100% pure caustic which is unlikely, but nevertheless close.

You should be able to see a lower layer that contains the water. Draining the lower layer will reduce the amout of water present going into the base stage. The water, methanol, and sulfuric are miscible. Using a methanol quantity equal to 10% of the oil volume with only 1ml of sulfuric may prevent the water and methanol from settling to the bottom of your processor. If this is the case, reducing your methanol qty to 5-7% of the oil volume may create a sg heavy enough to allow the methanol and water layer to sink to the bottom where it can be drained.
 
Location: central virginia | Registered: March 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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So, if I find that I have a Titration Drop of 5, I multiply that by .44 then multiply that total by the total liters of WVO that I started with. ((TDrop X .44) X Total WVO Liters) = H20 to drain.) Am I getting this? So, that said, I will have 40Gal - H20 to drain left in my tank, thus less liters to calculate the total amount of NaOH needed to make a complete reaction. Roll Eyes
 
Registered: December 05, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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This raises another question. The SG of H20 is 1G/quibic cm at 4 degrees Celcius. The SG of H20 will change as the temperature increases. Will the SG be more or less as the water get hotter? How can I calculate the changes?
 
Registered: December 05, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Originally posted by ArcticBD:
So, if I find that I have a Titration Drop of 5, I multiply that by .44 then multiply that total by the total liters of WVO that I started with. ((TDrop X .44) X Total WVO Liters) = H20 to drain.) Am I getting this? So, that said, I will have 40Gal - H20 to drain left in my tank, thus less liters to calculate the total amount of NaOH needed to make a complete reaction. Roll Eyes


At a titration drop of 5ml NaOH, the amount of methanol consumed is small. The water created will be mixed evenly with the methanol and sulfuric. To completely drain the water, you would need to drain an amount pretty much equal to the amount of methanol used.

Determining the SG of the mixture of water, sulfuric, and methanol is not easily calculated. The SG does not equal the simple volumetric addition due to hydroscopy. The mixture will be denser than the volumetric addition indicates.

In other words draining a volume of water, methanol, and sulfuric equal to the volume of methanol used initially will remove the bulk of the water that was created.
Removing 1/2 the volume of methanol used initially will remove approximately 1/2 of the water created.
 
Location: central virginia | Registered: March 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by ArcticBD:
This raises another question. The SG of H20 is 1G/quibic cm at 4 degrees Celcius. The SG of H20 will change as the temperature increases. Will the SG be more or less as the water get hotter? How can I calculate the changes?


The SG of water decreases as the temperature rises above freezing. Then it increases as the temperature falls below freezing. Wiki has a good chart that gives the density change of water as it correlates to temperature.
 
Location: central virginia | Registered: March 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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OK, so if I use 4.5 gallons of Methanol to do the AE reaction, when it is compleate I should drain approx. 4.5 gallons of liquid(water, methanol, sulferic acid)?
 
Registered: December 05, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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OK, so if I use 4.5 gallons of Methanol to do the AE reaction, when it is compleate I should drain approx. 4.5 gallons of liquid(water, methanol, sulferic acid)?


That's if you want to remove the majority of the water. Generally draining is required if your starting titration is above 15mls or so KOH. You don't necessarily have to drain all the water though.

You could calculate the water created and add that to the starting water % in your oil. Keeping the water % down under 1% going into base processing will work. As you know though the lower the water % the higher the yield.
 
Location: central virginia | Registered: March 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I had a "Homer moment" today (Doagh!). I'm adding volume to the existing 40gallons of WVO, so I drain the same volume that I add and I return to the same volume that I started with (40 Gallons). But then all I need to do is add the other half of the methanol and the approprate amount of NaOH.
 
Registered: December 05, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Abd
-any drainage after AE has to be made up with new methanol in the base stage. so if you drain 4.5 gallons you have to add 4.5 gallons more methanol. Tom


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Right, Wink I got a new batch that should be ready to drain tonight; I should have BD by morning.
 
Registered: December 05, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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