BIODIESEL & SVO DISCUSSION FORUMS





Sponsors    Biodiesel and SVO Forums Home    Forums  Hop To Forum Categories  Biodiesel  Hop To Forums  Acid Esterification    Homebrew Acid-Base Biodiesel Recipes
Page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 

Moderators: Shaun, The Trouts
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
Homebrew Acid-Base Biodiesel Recipes
 Login/Join
 
Member
posted Hide Post
Moved Reply:

Hello Marc_s

I am glad you have found some of my advice useful.
I am not an expert with the FATTA method.
I have found that it may take a lot more than 2 hours for the acid stage to complete.
You do not need to mix all the time, but off and on.
I have been told that it takes about 1.4g NaOH to neutralise every ml of H2SO4 used in the reaction. That suggests that if you are using 1ml H2SO4 per litre oil, the lowest the titration will go is about 1.4 NaOH. As I recall, I rarely had the acid stage end titration below 2.

Hello Quamela
As troy points out, water is one of the products of the acid stage and is apparently what will eventually stop the acid stage if too much builds up.
If, when you stop mixing you allow the oil to sit for several hours you may see a layer form on top or bottom of the oil. This layer contains methanol, H2SO4 and water. If you remove this layer, you can add additional methanol and H2SO4 and continue the Acid stage.
Van Gerpen has papersHere and Here where he performed a test series using 2 stages of Acid esterfication and one Base transesterfication stage.






 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Moved Reply:

Hello Tilly

I was just wondering, do you currently process your oil this way? I have one more ? to ask, if you do not mind. Since you have been so helpful Big Grin Do you know what the SG of my bd should be when finished? How important is that factor?


Just a squirrel trying to get a nut................. '04 6.0 F250 No problem Big Grin.
 
Registered: January 12, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Moved Reply:

The specific gravity of your biodiesel will depend on the feedstock oil, the percent conversion to esters (and the intermediate glycerides) and also on the temperature.


The australian fuel standard says that the fuel should have a density of between 860g/L and 890g/L (they don't give a temperature...helpful!)

I'm not sure you would really discover anything useful, apart from wether or not it meets the requirement (if there is one) for density in the ASTM standards.

Edit: found a complete document of the Aus standards. Density given is at 15 degrees celcius.
 
Location: Perth | Registered: April 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Moved Reply:

Hello Tilly

I was hoping that you had the information and would be willing to share Big Grin. I found ASTM D6751-07a which is supposed to provide the specifications, but ANSI wants 35 bucks to download it! Oh well, I will try my best to make sure my BD is the best it can be.

Thanks,
Marc_S


Just a squirrel trying to get a nut................. '04 6.0 F250 No problem Big Grin.
 
Registered: January 12, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Moved Reply:

Hello Troy

Thank you for that information Troy. I really appreciate all of your help and information on this problem as well. I am sure I will be calling upon your experience and knowledge again Big Grin. I am trying to learn as much about this stuff as I can, but circumstances as they are, there are only so many hours in the day, lol.

Thanks,

Marc_S


Just a squirrel trying to get a nut................. '04 6.0 F250 No problem Big Grin.
 
Registered: January 12, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Moved Reply:

acid-base two-step is very popular in china,I have designed,but the recovry is very low indeed.
 
Registered: July 07, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post



Member
posted Hide Post
Moved Reply:

Hello marc_s

I just returned from Melbourne so have not seen much of the list lately.
As everyone knows, I no longer make biodiesel. The only Acid-Base I have performed were test batches, but there have been a fair number of these.

SG is a meaningless test for Conversion for the reason Mark has stated.






 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Moved Reply:

Hello Liging

How high does your oil titrte?
Can you describe how you perform your Acid/Base procedure
quote:
Originally posted by liqing:
acid-base two-step is very popular in china,I have designed,but the recovry is very low indeed.






 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Moved Reply:

HELLO everyone I have read Van Gerpen's papers on esterification and had a couple of questions.Does the water that is produced stay mixed with the methanol? He says that the water and methanol rise to the top where they are removed, are they emusified and that is why the water doesn't drop to the bottom? And how do you remove it from the top? Do you need to drain the whole tank to get down to the water/methanol on top. I have a stainless steel tank that is sealed. does any body have a good method for removing it. I have done acid esterification with a smaller processor and I boiled the water/methanol off but it is very expensive. Any ideas Larry
 
Location: Grand Cayman | Registered: September 03, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Moved Reply:

Hello Larry
My experience is limited to small test batches. and it is a one layer mixture on the top and not an emulssion. Whether the layer forms on the top or bottom seems to depend on how much water, methanol and H2SO4 is present in the mixture. As I recall, the layer was easy to remove but I forget how I did it.






 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
member
posted Hide Post
Moved Reply:

quote:
Originally posted by Marc_S:

2. I titrated the heated oil. Using NaOH titrant, 10ml Methanol, 1ml WVO, 3 drops indicator solution. I ended up with 7ml of titrant to bring the ph of sample to 8.



Is methanol used to titrate oil in the acid-base process instead of isopropyl alcohol?

Ken
 
Location: Sellersville, PA | Registered: May 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Moved Reply:

Hello Bunk

Isopropanol, ethanol and methanol will all more or less work in the titration.
Iso is probably the easiest to use.






 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post



member
posted Hide Post
Moved Reply:

quote:
Originally posted by Tilly:
Isopropanol, ethanol and methanol will all more or less work in the titration. Iso is probably the easiest to use.


Thanks. I learned something today.

Ken
 
Location: Sellersville, PA | Registered: May 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Moved Reply:

Hello Bunk

I use methanol, simply because that is what I am processing with. Although, I see that alot of other BD'ers use Iso. maybe Tilly can elaborate on the for us Big Grin


Just a squirrel trying to get a nut................. '04 6.0 F250 No problem Big Grin.
 
Registered: January 12, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Moved Reply:

It doesn't really matter what alcohol you use, so long as it is miscible with water. The alcohol is only acting as a solvent to dissolve the FFA in the oil.*
Since ethanol, methanol and iso-propanol are readily available and miscible in water, they are the most logical choices.



*Fixed, cheers Tilly.
 
Location: Perth | Registered: April 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Moved Reply:

Hello Troy

If you titrate with methanol or ethanol, the oil does not disolve fully.
The way I understand it is that the alcohol is "Washing" the FFA's out of the oil






 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Moved Reply:

Hello Tilly

So, what you are saying, is, the iso will give you a more accurate reading of total ffa?

Marc_S


Just a squirrel trying to get a nut................. '04 6.0 F250 No problem Big Grin.
 
Registered: January 12, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Moved Reply:

I have been reading this topic with great interest as my WVO typically titrates in the 5-7 range.

Yesterday I tried unsuccessfully to lower the FFA's of a test batch; here are the steps I performed; please chime in if you see where I may have erred.

My batch size was 190liters pre-heated to 55C. The starting titration was 6.0ml. I slowly mixed 1ml per liter (190ml) into a 3 liters of methanol in a separate container, then added this to my 190L batch. I thoroughly mixed the chemicals with the WVO, remixing about every half hour for two hours. I retitrated after 2 hours: still 6.0ml. It was the end of the day so I decided to leave mixture overnight after blending one last time. The next morning the temp had dropped to 41C in the tank. I blended once more, then retitrated: still 6.0ml after 16 hours.

I reheated the oil to 61C and processed the batch using NaoH and 22% methanol. It made biodiesel but the yield was only 80% and the bio was dull, typical of what I get processing 6.0 oil with no acid treatment.

Any ideas?

Thanks!
 
Registered: July 11, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post



Member
posted Hide Post
Moved Reply:

Hello Marc_S
The few comparison tests that I have performed shows that by and large all three of the alcohols give very similar results.
Iso is certainly the easiest to use because generally all the oil does disolve in Iso.
However, Here in ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย 100% Iso is very expensive so I routinely used Methylated Spirits (95% ethanol)
quote:
Originally posted by Marc_S:
Hello Tilly
So, what you are saying, is, the iso will give you a more accurate reading of total ffa?
Marc_S






 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Moved Reply:

Hello Netman, welcome to the forum

There was not enough methanol in the acid stage.
If you used 20% methanol for the reaction, 20% of 190 litres of WVO would be 38 litres of methanol in the total reaction.
Typically people put about 50% of this methanol (19 litres) in the acid stage.

I suggest doing a few test litres if possible before making bigger batches.
quote:
Originally posted by Netman352:
I have been reading this topic with great interest as my WVO typically titrates in the 5-7 range.

Yesterday I tried unsuccessfully to lower the FFA's of a test batch; here are the steps I performed; please chime in if you see where I may have erred.

My batch size was 190liters pre-heated to 55C. The starting titration was 6.0ml. I slowly mixed 1ml per liter (190ml) into a 3 liters of methanol in a separate container, then added this to my 190L batch. I thoroughly mixed the chemicals with the WVO, remixing about every half hour for two hours. I retitrated after 2 hours: still 6.0ml. It was the end of the day so I decided to leave mixture overnight after blending one last time. The next morning the temp had dropped to 41C in the tank. I blended once more, then retitrated: still 6.0ml after 16 hours.

I reheated the oil to 61C and processed the batch using NaoH and 22% methanol. It made biodiesel but the yield was only 80% and the bio was dull, typical of what I get processing 6.0 oil with no acid treatment.

Any ideas?

Thanks!






 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
  Powered by Social Strata Page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7  
 

Sponsors    Biodiesel and SVO Forums Home    Forums  Hop To Forum Categories  Biodiesel  Hop To Forums  Acid Esterification    Homebrew Acid-Base Biodiesel Recipes

© Maui Green Energy 2000 - 2014