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HTAE Observations....is it worth it???
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After 5 HTAE batches, I have noticed the following things...
Final T doesnt drop as far, reguardless of the multiplier used.
Extra electricity is used for heating and mixing
T doesnt not drop as fast as I had hoped.
T does not drop as fast on larger batches as it does on smaller ones. Batch of 45G dropped quicker than batch of 65G Same starting T's, same methanol, equally super dry oil.

My personal conclusion for now is that HTAE is not worth the added electric for the results.

I would like to hear if anyone else is having similar results. I know Fabricator is having some awesome results doing something similar, but he has the mac daddy pump and system.

Thoughts?
 
Registered: May 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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hook
-htae requires mixing to keep the methanol mixed in. sounds like your methanol may be boiling off, condensing on the upper part of the processor then just floating on top. I have found that what you get after three hrs,(T) is all you will achieve. The extra electric to heat the batch for 3 hrs, must be much less than you would use the old way, heating for 12 - 16 hrs. I agree that T 5 is diapointing, but this being a very new process, all the bugs are not worked out! Fab has realy good luck with this process, as does Dkenny, for me, T is not as low as doing ae the old way, T 1.5 - T 2, but the yields have been consistantly better.
-I am starting another batch on Sunday, and will use full pump flow and prop mix at .5 bar or 14.5" Hg vacuum. Tom


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Out of three AE batches that I did the least one worked . I used 2 ml. of rooto per liter of wvo in the methanol and sealed the drum top with duct tape because I think some of the methanol vaporized out before it could do its job in the other batches. Also mixing the acid ( very slowly) into the methanol first before injection worked great . In the previous batches I added the acid first to the wvo and than added the methanol. Tom does it this way and it works for him but not for me. I haven't done any brewing for a couple of months and with colder weather might have to put things on hold but still like to stay informed on the process.
 
Location: western new york | Registered: November 19, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Tom,
What is the point behind running the reaction under vacuum as opposed to under pressure? My thought would be that the reaction would benefit from pressure (as opposed to vacuum)keeping the methanol in a liquid phase instead of vapor. Just curious.
 
Location: central virginia | Registered: March 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Tom, my pump puts out 20gpm. I inject the methanol/acid mix slow like a base stage to help keep it in suspension a little longer.
I have noticed better yields also, but I havent got consistent results. I would feel alot better about if I could get consistent results like a regular AE
 
Registered: May 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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DoubleD
-not sure what effect if any the .5bar vacuum will have. The commercial plant operator sent me the flow chart for their operation,(base/base) 8 hrs start to finish that is from raw vo to dry finished biodiesel! they process and wash under vacuum, so I thought I would try it with the ae processto see if it had any effect . this will have to be done at a lower temp to prevent the methanol from boiling. I will post the results later this week
-I would think also that the process should be done under pressure, that would raise the boiling point of the methanol,and that alone would have a positive effect on the process. Tom


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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hook
-so better yields but higher ending T this is just all wrong Big Grin that result goes against everything we have learned so far. So is something in the htae causing the final T to be scewed? I don't have the answer for sure, but like I said, my results are the same, and if I remember correctly, Dave had simmilar results.
-20 gpm that should provide sufficient mixing, it's like using three little blue pumps! Are you sure about the flow? the situation you find yourself in where the larger batch doesn't work as well, reminds me of the probems I had when I increased the batch size from 100 ltr to 160 ltr. the process just would not work! (little blue pump) after I added the prop mixer the problem disapeared. RickDaTech's theory on that was that the rate of phase separation caused the pump to pump a higher a higher ratio of byproduct than wvo. I know he was bang on, as I nave noticed a big differance in the colour of the mix as it passes through the sight tude. Tom


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Haven't been around here for a bit, good to see HTAE still being worked on.

Biotom, the vacum will cause the methonal to boil out, under pressure works best. The higher ending T is from the mixing (as Im sure you know Big Grin), but can be counteracted with some type of water absorbing material used in processing (as you likely already know too Big Grin)

I can finish HTAE in under 1 hour using an equivalent .04 multiplier with the old equation and less than 10% methonal and get nearly the same results as with the basic AE process at the old temps after 12+ hours.

Eliminating water that is created during esterification, not allowing methonal to escape the reactor, and constant mixing are the only additional changes when performing HTAE vs AE to get the same results in far less time with good consistent results.

All the old stuff still applies, like completely dry and filtered WVO and a dedicated AE processor (thanks for that insight Biotom! Big Grin)
 
Location: Buckeye | Registered: July 07, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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And to answer the original question posted on this thread:
YES! It is definately worth it! Big Grin
 
Location: Buckeye | Registered: July 07, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Tom, Im running that 20gpm pumpon 250L batches, so it might be marginal. I dont have a dedicated AE processor. If I did, I would have so much finished bio that I'd never get any testing done. Big Grin
As it is I went through 200 gallons or so of oil in 2 weeks, just testing the HTAE.
I think that for me personally, I just need to refine the HTAE to suit my needs. I might try even lower mult's as the lowest I have tried so far is .10
I can tell you all that a higher mult doesnt help at all with HTAE, tried .12 and wasnt happy with the ending T at all.
 
Registered: May 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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buckeye
-you've been hiding Big Grin OK here is my thinking on this, htae requires mixing to keep the methanol mixed in. yes lowering the pressure to . 5 bar (14.5"hg) will also lower the bioling point of methanol, not a good thing!, so I will also lower the temp of the ae process so that the methanol does not boil off, and I will not need to mix, other than that required at the beginning of the process.(eperiance shows that not mixing results in lower ending t) This is the proceedure that a commercial plant uses for the base and wash proceedures. I want to find out if this will enhance the ae treatment as well. Seems from what the chemist is telling me that we need to stay away from temps above 55C for both the base and wash process. he is not sure about the effect of high temp on the ae process other than it will for sure make the reaction go faster, but will it unbalance the chemistry and move our reaction to create monoglyceryds, that is the million dollar question right now. One of the indicators of mono crap is difficulty in the wash cycles. Tom


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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which from what I have read is that a few of us are having wash difficulties. Might be something there Tom. Good work!
 
Registered: May 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Originally posted by Biotom:
buckeye
-you've been hiding Big Grin OK here is my thinking on this, htae requires mixing to keep the methanol mixed in. yes lowering the pressure to . 5 bar (14.5"hg) will also lower the bioling point of methanol, not a good thing!, so I will also lower the temp of the ae process so that the methanol does not boil off, and I will not need to mix, other than that required at the beginning of the process.(eperiance shows that not mixing results in lower ending t) This is the proceedure that a commercial plant uses for the base and wash proceedures. I want to find out if this will enhance the ae treatment as well. Seems from what the chemist is telling me that we need to stay away from temps above 55C for both the base and wash process. he is not sure about the effect of high temp on the ae process other than it will for sure make the reaction go faster, but will it unbalance the chemistry and move our reaction to create monoglyceryds, that is the million dollar question right now. One of the indicators of mono crap is difficulty in the wash cycles. Tom


Been working on some projects Big Grin

Im not having the same issues with HTAE and clarity that Ive been reading about. Maybe because of the fuge? Are we sure its not soap? Maybe the bentonite is preventing soap formation in my process by taking up H20 although I would think soap couldn't be formed during AE...

Or could it be water trapped by the monoglycerides? Didn't your chemist friend tell you monoglycerides are hygroscopic (water absorbing for those not sure what it means although Im sure most of you do Big Grin)?

Maybe the water is trapped by the monoglycerides and acts as an emulsifier with the methonal (also hygroscopic) in the base stage making cleaning a pain?

Or could it just be unconverted monoglycerides trapping water in the finish biodiesel making it very difficult to clean?

These are just some guesses. Any thoughts?

Do you guys dry your HTAE oil before base?
 
Location: Buckeye | Registered: July 07, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Biotom, I look forward to your results, any chance you can take titrations every 15 minutes during your experiment? Big Grin
 
Location: Buckeye | Registered: July 07, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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