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SAP test and Recipe for Bob Abbey's KOH BDG
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Bob,

I received your BDG today. I am going to perform the SAP test on it tonight.

I'm actually going to try a twist on the SAP test that I've not done in quite a while. I'm going to do the graduated test and document it for my book.

I'll also perform the soap:glycerin ratio test, this will give us a more accurate dilution ratio for liquid soap or give us an idea as to how much hardening ingredients are going to be needed to make nice bar soap.

Did you want to make bar or liquid out of your KOH Glycerin?


-Rick

http://www.knicenclean.com your single-most largest free BDG soaping content on the internet.
SAP Testing, Ingredient Properties, Soap Glossary and Recipes just to name a few.

Making Biodiesel Byproduct Soap Learn how to use your biodiesel byproducts to make great bar and liquid soap!!!

"Closing the loop on biodiesel production one bar at a time!"

Beware of the Dunning–Kruger effect.
 
Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: April 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I have been making liquid soap from the KOH BDG.
I make bar soap from the NAOH BDG and about 1/3 lard/BDG.
I will send you some of my NAOH BDG as well.

Bob
 
Location: Western NY | Registered: September 16, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Sounds good Bob.

I will get your numbers done and make some liquid from what you sent me while I await the NaOH glycerin.


-Rick

http://www.knicenclean.com your single-most largest free BDG soaping content on the internet.
SAP Testing, Ingredient Properties, Soap Glossary and Recipes just to name a few.

Making Biodiesel Byproduct Soap Learn how to use your biodiesel byproducts to make great bar and liquid soap!!!

"Closing the loop on biodiesel production one bar at a time!"

Beware of the Dunning–Kruger effect.
 
Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: April 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Rick,

NAOH BDG is on the way.

Bob
 
Location: Western NY | Registered: September 16, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Thanks Bob.

This is also helping me refine a few new things I've been playing with.

This is what I came up with.

The BDG still had some water in it.

Starting weight - 176.6 oz
Boil Point - 215*F
Smoke Point - 290*F
End weight - 150.4
Boil-off - 26.2oz

Soap:Glycerin Ratio - 1:1.38 or 42% soap.

SAP - 16% <-- If you are going to thicken the soap with Borax you can use up to a 24% SAP.

I'm now ready to process the KOH BDG into liquid soap.

A few quick questions, Do you want the soap to be thickened once it is properly diluted?

Did you want to add any additional ingredients for lather?

It actually might be best not to add the additional ingredients until you know how well it performs and then make that decision.

I'll be posing some pics of the SAP test, the thin soap and the finished soap if you want it thickened.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Rick K,


-Rick

http://www.knicenclean.com your single-most largest free BDG soaping content on the internet.
SAP Testing, Ingredient Properties, Soap Glossary and Recipes just to name a few.

Making Biodiesel Byproduct Soap Learn how to use your biodiesel byproducts to make great bar and liquid soap!!!

"Closing the loop on biodiesel production one bar at a time!"

Beware of the Dunning–Kruger effect.
 
Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: April 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I thought I would make a post about what the SAP test looks like before and after it's completed.

This is the SAP test before the test began. Notice how thick and cloudy it looks with the saponifiable elements left un-saponified.



Here are those same jars after the SAP test. Notice how dark and clear they are. As saponificaion happens the soap gets more clear. This is because the fatty acids actually cloud the soap. So when you get complete saponification the soap is really clear. If your soap is cloudy that's probably the main reason.



And here is a pic of the final soap -- diluted and then thickened.




Bob, I will be sending this back to you along with heatbeater's bars from a few weeks ago.


-Rick

http://www.knicenclean.com your single-most largest free BDG soaping content on the internet.
SAP Testing, Ingredient Properties, Soap Glossary and Recipes just to name a few.

Making Biodiesel Byproduct Soap Learn how to use your biodiesel byproducts to make great bar and liquid soap!!!

"Closing the loop on biodiesel production one bar at a time!"

Beware of the Dunning–Kruger effect.
 
Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: April 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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quote:
The BDG still had some water in it.
I'm surprised it was that wet. I took it to 250F after the boil off, and it was flat, no more boiling.
quote:
Do you want the soap to be thickened once it is properly diluted?
Why do you dilute the soap then thicken it? I guess it depends on how thin diluted is.
quote:
Did you want to add any additional ingredients for lather?
That could be left out as an option.

I sent some of my bar soap with the NAOH BDG.

Thank you !!!

Bob
 
Location: Western NY | Registered: September 16, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by BobAbbey:
I'm surprised it was that wet. I took it to 250F after the boil off, and it was flat, no more boiling.
Why do you dilute the soap then thicken it? I guess it depends on how thin diluted is.
That could be left out as


Because of the way you fully demeth and then add water we could have done the SAP test on the wet glycerin. If we did the SAP test on the wet BDG the SAP test would only be good for that specific tote of BDG. By drying it the SAP number is valid for the full batch of BDG.

I usually heat the BDG until it just starts to smoke. Depending on the Soap Percentage this can be anywhere between 290*F and 350*F. The dryer you can get the BDG the more methanol you can get out too. However, your demething process prior to you adding water is really effective because when I'm drying the BDG I cannot smell any methanol vapor.

If you decide not dry your glycerin for liquid soap be sure that you do the SAP test on the wet BDG.

There are 2 ways to have thick soap. One is to leave the soap concentrated and the other is to dilute the soap and use a thickener. A properly diluted soap will actually lather better and the thickeners can also act like a lather booster. Using soap concentration as the "thickener" will only get you so far. If you want a soap that much thicker than pancake syrup the soap will start to congeal and/or plug up your soap pump.

Another benefit to diluting the soap is the clarity and transparency it can impart to the soap. Have a look at Tim's foam pump soap. It's super diluted so it will foam when it's pumped. It's not been thickened so it's water thin, but for the foam pump that's what you need.

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/ev...10109192/m/248109793

You can take dilution too far in that the thickener's will have no effect on the soap too. This is where the soap percent (soap:glycerin ratio) will help determine the dilution ratio.


-Rick

http://www.knicenclean.com your single-most largest free BDG soaping content on the internet.
SAP Testing, Ingredient Properties, Soap Glossary and Recipes just to name a few.

Making Biodiesel Byproduct Soap Learn how to use your biodiesel byproducts to make great bar and liquid soap!!!

"Closing the loop on biodiesel production one bar at a time!"

Beware of the Dunning–Kruger effect.
 
Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: April 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Bob,

I received your NaOH (Bar) BDG today. I will get the Soap and SAP values worked out this week.

Do you just want basic saponified glycerin or do would you like a recipe that adds hardness and lather?


-Rick

http://www.knicenclean.com your single-most largest free BDG soaping content on the internet.
SAP Testing, Ingredient Properties, Soap Glossary and Recipes just to name a few.

Making Biodiesel Byproduct Soap Learn how to use your biodiesel byproducts to make great bar and liquid soap!!!

"Closing the loop on biodiesel production one bar at a time!"

Beware of the Dunning–Kruger effect.
 
Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: April 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I think glycerin only might need the hardness, depending on the soap:glycerine ratio. My bar soap I make with lard and it hardens nice and lathers well. You said you might be able to make a translucent bar using certain additives. I like that idea.
I will be sending you an order for some chemicals soon.

Bob
 
Location: Western NY | Registered: September 16, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Rick,

If there is a small amount (like 5%) of biodiesel in the glycerin, what effect will it have on soap making?

Bob
 
Location: Western NY | Registered: September 16, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by BobAbbey:
Rick,

If there is a small amount (like 5%) of biodiesel in the glycerin, what effect will it have on soap making?

Bob


It will increase the SAP value but that will shake out with the KNC SAP Test.

Basically the excess biodiesel will be turned into soap. However you will end up using more caustic because of the excess biodiesel.

Just a side note... Chad and I made some soap from biodiesel a few years ago to see if biodiesel was part of the saponifiable elements. We found that biodiesel can be made into soap. Some time after that I read an article about soap being made from esters. It makes sense, I think we've all had a batch of glop. Same idea... Water + Caustic + Biodiesel = Soap.


-Rick

http://www.knicenclean.com your single-most largest free BDG soaping content on the internet.
SAP Testing, Ingredient Properties, Soap Glossary and Recipes just to name a few.

Making Biodiesel Byproduct Soap Learn how to use your biodiesel byproducts to make great bar and liquid soap!!!

"Closing the loop on biodiesel production one bar at a time!"

Beware of the Dunning–Kruger effect.
 
Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: April 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Rick:
BDG is on it's way . Thanks again for the kind offer.
We are anxious and excited to get this going.
Look forward to hearing from you soon.
regards
Tom


1999 K3500 Dually with a new AMG 6.5TD turned up a bit by John Kennedy
Chevy DMax Totaled thanks to a 20 year old in a Mustang
Mercedes 300CDT
John Deere
On B99.?
 
Location: Decatur, Al | Registered: September 03, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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No problem Tom.

As soon as I get your BDG I will run a SAP and glycerin ratio test. Using these tests will help you make perfect soap every time.

Let get you up and running ASAP!


-Rick

http://www.knicenclean.com your single-most largest free BDG soaping content on the internet.
SAP Testing, Ingredient Properties, Soap Glossary and Recipes just to name a few.

Making Biodiesel Byproduct Soap Learn how to use your biodiesel byproducts to make great bar and liquid soap!!!

"Closing the loop on biodiesel production one bar at a time!"

Beware of the Dunning–Kruger effect.
 
Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: April 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Tom,

I received your BDG today.

I have a few questions.

Is this the BDG that you used for caustic stripping on your oil?

Was it demethed along with the biodiesel prior to caustic stripping?

It seems very thin and was not frozen when I received it. I am going to start doing some testing on it tonight.


-Rick

http://www.knicenclean.com your single-most largest free BDG soaping content on the internet.
SAP Testing, Ingredient Properties, Soap Glossary and Recipes just to name a few.

Making Biodiesel Byproduct Soap Learn how to use your biodiesel byproducts to make great bar and liquid soap!!!

"Closing the loop on biodiesel production one bar at a time!"

Beware of the Dunning–Kruger effect.
 
Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: April 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Rick:
Yes SOP is take Demethed BDG from Previous batch and use it in a caustic strip process.
The transitional barrel I use should be clear of previous batch material and Methanol free. Adding another piece of equipment soon that will blow dry the Whole batch to drive off residual Methanol.
Thanks again
Tom


1999 K3500 Dually with a new AMG 6.5TD turned up a bit by John Kennedy
Chevy DMax Totaled thanks to a 20 year old in a Mustang
Mercedes 300CDT
John Deere
On B99.?
 
Location: Decatur, Al | Registered: September 03, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Tom,

Good news and better news.

When your glycerin arrived I was surprised to see 2 distinct layers. The top layer was very thin and the bottom layer was thick. I found it odd to have a separation and even more odd that it had not thickened with the cold temperatures from your place to mine. The Styrofoam peanuts could account for that to a certain degree.

Anyway...

I did a boil test and the material was surprisingly dry, one gallon lost only like 3 ounces. And a smoke point close to 350*F. I usually see a smoke point at 275*F - 300*F.

I did the KNC SAP test and found it was getting close to 100% SAP.

I also did a KNC glycerin ratio test on it -- I thought that it had not worked, however as it turns out it was just fine. It was showing nearly 100% fatty acid/oil content.

This would indicate that what you sent is mostly oil. Things started to make sense. I took some of the material and processed it into soap as though it were oil and it went perfect, just as if I had made a bath of soap from virgin un-saturated oil.

So next I decided to try to make a small batch of biodiesel from your material. I just did a standard 7g KOH per Liter. I did the 27/3 test on it and it was pretty close to a pass, very cloudy with very little fall-out.

Next I did a titration test on it. It titrated at 2.5. I made a test batch of biodiesel from it and it passed the 27/3 test with flying colors.

The oil was very dark so it was very easy to assume it was glycerin. So you have a couple of options. You can process the material into soap as though it is 100% oil and get some really nice liquid soap.

Or...

You can take the oil off the top and process it into biodiesel. Having some BDG in your oil does not hurt the process of turning it into biodiesel.

Now... as far as BDG goes I am going to see how much BDG I can get out of the 5 gallons you sent me and do the KNC SAP and KNC Glycerin Ratio testing on it.

I am not sure how you decanted the material you sent me, but if you can try to get a few gallons of the actual BDG from the bottom off to me and I will continue.

I will post later to let you know how much BDG I could get from the 5 gallons you sent.


-Rick

http://www.knicenclean.com your single-most largest free BDG soaping content on the internet.
SAP Testing, Ingredient Properties, Soap Glossary and Recipes just to name a few.

Making Biodiesel Byproduct Soap Learn how to use your biodiesel byproducts to make great bar and liquid soap!!!

"Closing the loop on biodiesel production one bar at a time!"

Beware of the Dunning–Kruger effect.
 
Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: April 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Rick
Not sure what to make of all this. The BDG has been Demethed in a WBD process then off loaded in to the transitional barrel. Some fuel is pumped as well to make sure we get all the BDG. (Soon in the Future, the whole batch will be moved over to a drying phase to remove residual methanol and seperate the BDG ). The next batch of oil then is pumped in and heated to about 210F under vacuum to dry. Once dried then the previous batch of BDG is pumped in and mixed and also where the fuel is recaptured. The material I sent you was static drained off the bottom and from about the middle of 23 gallons of what I thought was Glycerin.
The reason for 100% SAP ?? Due to using it to caustic strip the incoming oil ?? Your comments lead me to believe this is good for making liquid soap but also concerned I am doing something wrong?Comments and or suggestions welcomed and appreciated !!
Thanks again
regards
Tom


1999 K3500 Dually with a new AMG 6.5TD turned up a bit by John Kennedy
Chevy DMax Totaled thanks to a 20 year old in a Mustang
Mercedes 300CDT
John Deere
On B99.?
 
Location: Decatur, Al | Registered: September 03, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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My guess is that during caustic stripping a lot of oil got mixed in with your glycerin. As it sat the glycerin settled to the bottom the oil layer was lower than the middle of your 23 gallons of BDG. If you can send me some of the glycerin from the very bottom of that tank.

What I was saying is that you could use the oil layer to make soap, but you might just want to make it into biodiesel -- It's really good oil for BD. Titrated at 2.5 and had almost no water or chicken parts.

If you want to use that oil layer as stock to make soap you can use a 100% SAP value or use the SAP value for the type of oil you believe it to be, most likely canola or soy I would guess.


-Rick

http://www.knicenclean.com your single-most largest free BDG soaping content on the internet.
SAP Testing, Ingredient Properties, Soap Glossary and Recipes just to name a few.

Making Biodiesel Byproduct Soap Learn how to use your biodiesel byproducts to make great bar and liquid soap!!!

"Closing the loop on biodiesel production one bar at a time!"

Beware of the Dunning–Kruger effect.
 
Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: April 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Rick:
Just so happens I lined them up in that order just in case.
Any suggestions on what to do different as I am as of now rethinking our process.
Since we really are trying to close the loop here, and the fact that for small operators, The business model doesn't work without soap revenue!! Alot of us now know that the real $$$$ Big Grin are in the soap !!! and it's a great away to get out to the community .
Thanks again for your help and expertise.

regards
Tom


1999 K3500 Dually with a new AMG 6.5TD turned up a bit by John Kennedy
Chevy DMax Totaled thanks to a 20 year old in a Mustang
Mercedes 300CDT
John Deere
On B99.?
 
Location: Decatur, Al | Registered: September 03, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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