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Proposed ground rules for this sub forum....

This topic can be found at:
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/610109192/m/549108703

November 25, 2009, 06:30 PM
Graydon Blair
Proposed ground rules for this sub forum....
I would like to propose some basic ground rules for this newly created sub forum.

1) Let's practice the scientific method around this place.
Namely, that the scientific method be practiced much like it has been practiced for years on the Biodiesel side of things here.

If you have an issue you'd like to share, great. Share it.
But be ready to back it up with scientific evidence in the form of sound chemistry or with credible articles that pertain to the topic being discussed.

2) Keep personal attacks out of discussions.
This applies to EVERYONE here. I know there's some very strong opinions about how soap should or shouldn't be made from Biodiesel Glycerin. That's great. I think everyone would be happy to hear them, but out of respect for others here, keep personal attacks out of the posts and discussions.

This includes innuendo's and generalizations about one group vs. the other.

3) Grow up & act like the adults that you hopefully are.
I realize that there's some extremely strong opinions on soap making, how it's performed, and the reasons why it's done. For some it's for personal pleasure. For others, it's their business. For others, it's something different to dabble with. And for others it's just a nice way to get rid of the glycerin.

There are going to be differences of opinions. There are going to be different motivations by all of us for why we're playing with soap. Great. That's what makes it so fun!

Over the past few weeks, several posts of mine have been hijacked by those with very strong opinions on how soap should be or not be made. Much bickering and fighting has gone on. "He said, she said, I see it this way, I see it that way. You're a moron for how you see it, how dare you look at it that way." "You can kiss my &*#$% and die!"

I'd post a picture of some great soap someone had sent in, and no sooner than it was posted it would get hijacked and taken off topic and turn into yet another bickering fight.

Camps have gone up. Lines in the sand have been drawn. Name calling has ensued. Personal attacks have occurred. And some who were very involved with soap making in the past have now left and even gone as so far as to declare that they're done.

Do you realize how immature you all look right now? Grow the hell up!!! Take your ego's out of it! Get back on track!

I've tried extremely hard to stay out of this mess, but because I'm getting drug into this mud-slinging contest kicking and screaming, here goes....

I find it very ironic that in a "soap forum" there's so much "mud slinging" going on.

You all are acting like a bunch of kids. As soon as I'd post a thread with pictures of someone making soap that was sent in, one side or the other are hijacking the thread and taking it off into completely different area's.

For Pete's sake kids, grow up! It's gotten so bad, that now Legal has seen it necessary to pull all his posts and announce he was done around here. I can't say I blame him! Grow up & start acting like adults!

Let's treat this like we do the Biodiesel side of things.

If you have something to say, great, say it. But present scientific evidence to support your claim instead of spouting off at the other side just to egg things on!

Both sides are guilty of going at each other's throats. Legal was just as much a part of the "egging it on" as Rick K was. Trust me, I heard from both of them! Many times!

Look, I think it's great that there's such a differing of opinion on soap making, but for Pete's sake people! Grow up & start acting like the adults that you hopefully are!

I've stayed out of this whole argument as long as I could stand. I even offered to moderate things between Legal & Rick when I got back from vacation, to which both parties were amiable too, but before I could even catch my breath from the long drive back from California, Legal pulled all his posts, announced "I'm Done", and left this newly created area of the forum that was meant to share idea's on soap making.

Instead of it being a place where we can all discuss differing views in a civil manner like we have done FOR YEARS on the Biodiesel side, it's turning into a "he said, she said" fit.

Look, here's how I see it....
There are SEVERAL ways to make soap.

In it's purest form, the soap we've discussed around these parts comes from
1) Biodiesel By-Product Glycerin
2) A catalyst, and
3) Some Water.

Last time I checked, Biodiesel Glycerin is derived from the synthetic process of chemically altering triglycerides. In fact, we use *GASP* Methanol and *GASP* Lye or Potassium Hydroxide that have been synthetically produced. In many cases the methanol comes from a petroleum product.

So enough with calling Soap "natural" or "synthetic" or "organic".
It's a synthetic, man made product! We make it through a very chemical intensive process!
Get over it!

I know there's some that feel extremely strongly about adding additives to this thing we call Biodiesel Glycerin Soap. Great! State your opinion and back it up with facts & articles & let's be done with it. But then end it! Don't go egging the other side on!

Same goes for those of you that it's fine to add additives to our soap product. State your opinion. Use facts for why you think it's a good idea, and be done with it!

If there's differing opinions by some on one side vs the other, great! State it! But don't be surprised if there are those that don't wholeheartedly accept your opinion. It's gonna happen folks! It's been happening since the dawn of time! That doesn't mean you have to kill each other over it!

But for Pete's sake! Stop with the bickering! I realize that some of you would rather die than use "synthetically produced products". That's great! So where does that leave you with Biodiesel Glycerin Soap? It's a synthetically produced product (Saponification is a CHEMICAL process) with compounds that are *GASP* ALSO synthetically produced (Lye and Glycerin from Biodiesel).

Last time I checked, breathing in Lye while you're using it is pretty bad for you. But we all still work with Lye and Potassium Hydroxide and we understand the risk/benefit we get from it. Same goes for methanol. It's one heck of a dangerous thing. Heck, breathe it in enough and *GASP* it'll cause severe nerve damage, and could kill you! Imagine that folks!

Do you not all understand how silly this all looks? Are you so entrenched in your ways that you have to "fight your opinion's to the death?" It reminds me of how bad things can get over on the SVO side of things.

So please, calm down and grow up. Realize that there WILL BE those that don't look at soap making the same way you do. And realize that that's ok!

There's a quote in a famous Simon & Garfunkel song that I heard a long time ago that applies well to the arguments that have ensued here.

"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still".
It's very, very true. And I believe it applies to this issue as well.

So, with that in mind......
Let's try to be a little more civil around here. It would sure be appreciated by several others that have just come in here & wondered "What the hell is going on around here? I'm outta here! You soap making guys take this stuff way too seriously!!!"

-Graydon




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November 25, 2009, 06:58 PM
john galt
Those ground rules should apply to all the biodieselinfopop forums.

...and here I thought those sorts of shenanigans were confined to the SVO\WVO\UCO sections of the site.

Good points about 'synthetic' vs 'natural'.



November 25, 2009, 07:11 PM
Graydon Blair
One additional item I'd like to address.

If I see another "I can't believe that x would actually do y.....how can they do that? That's just terrible! They must be evil and terrible people" I'm going to puke!!! Again, grow up! I view it as a personal attack and will report it to the moderators as such.

Using the "I can't believe" is an old political trick to sway a group of people over to one side of thinking. It's been used on both sides of this issue. Please stop with it.

True. You may not believe that x would do y, but those you speak of probably can't believe that you would do what you're proposing either. That's just life.

It's a difference of opinion. That's all. Using the "I can't believe" ploy is getting old....really fast and it polarizes groups of people who would otherwise have gotten along and just realize that there are differing opinions. Stop with the political tricks and just live with the fact that not everyone in the world is going to think like you do. It's just a fact of life folks.

What would be better would be something along the lines of "I understand that x doing y may cause....whatever you believe it may cause. But then leave your "I can't believe you'd actually THINK that way!" out of the discussion. That's a quick way to start a fight and polarize people even more. Don't believe me? Go visit the political side of this forum. Or the SVO side of this place. It's chalked FULL of examples of that occurring.




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November 25, 2009, 07:42 PM
Biotom
Shaun
-Is it time to split this topic into two, one for the natural soap, And yes it is the result of a chemical reaction, without additional addatives, and one for the chenical addatives side. There seems to be a lot of hard feelings here, and it is obviuos that the two camps are for sure heading in opposite directions. Tom


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
November 25, 2009, 07:51 PM
Graydon Blair
You know, that's actually one of the best idea's I've seen yet!
1) Producing Biodiesel Glycerin Soap Without Additives
2) Producing Biodiesel Glycerin Soap With Additives

However, it might actually need 3 groups.
1) Producing Biodiesel Glycerin Soap Without Additives
2) Producing Biodiesel Glycerin Soap With Chemical Additives
3) Producing Biodiesel Glycerin Soap With Non-Chemical Additives

I've seen people split hairs even within those categories too though (ie. what some view as a "natural" additive others may argue are the same as chemical additives but not fully synthesized), maybe as people post they can just indicate if their post falls into one of those 3 categories.

Or maybe everyone can just learn to exercise a little self-restraint in the name-calling department.




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November 25, 2009, 08:02 PM
Rick K
Tom,
I have to disagree.

What defines an additive?
What defines chemical?

I actually support and talk about whole oil additives -- most of which seem to be commonly accepted.

The discussion subject line will indicate well enough if it is a post that someone would like to be involved in.

Graydon is right on, sometimes we just need to agree to disagree without the need to attack or libel.

You (this forum and it's members) have my word that I will not get involved in using misleading information nor will I attack or libel anyone.


-Rick

http://www.knicenclean.com your single-most largest free BDG soaping content on the internet.
SAP Testing, Ingredient Properties, Soap Glossary and Recipes just to name a few.

Making Biodiesel Byproduct Soap Learn how to use your biodiesel byproducts to make great bar and liquid soap!!!

"Closing the loop on biodiesel production one bar at a time!"

Beware of the Dunning–Kruger effect.
November 25, 2009, 08:23 PM
Biotom
-not to hijack this thread, but respect of free speech is a two way street. I also agree that there is no place for name calling and disparaging remarks. Tilly found that out!
-I for one, who served 25 years in the military so you have the right to free speech, will not under any circumstance have my ability to do the same curtailed by anyone ! Tom


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
November 25, 2009, 09:33 PM
Graydon Blair
dukegrad98
Points taken and appreciated.

Perhaps there's been quite a bit of Ego's going about in this soap making section (myself included). I'll admit, I finally got tired of the bickering and said something. I particularly dislike the "I can't believe how anyone could ever do x when they make soap". Those types of comments in my view have a terribly polarizing effect on people and push people into one side or the other on an issue rather than allowing people to continue to shape their own opinion based on meaningful debate and discussion about a particular issue.

As for the soap making sub forum, I think it would be terribly unfortunate for it to become nothing but a bitter group of people fighting back and forth with each other over who's more right than the other about how Biodiesel glycerin soap should be made.

I've been absolutely amazed to see how nasty people have become towards each other in here and since no one seemed to bother to say anything, even with the tensions continuing to mount, I figured it was time to break the ice & get it over with.

I would really hope that we could all keep the discussions open, positive, and constructive.

-Graydon




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November 25, 2009, 10:25 PM
Jon Heron
WOW!
It must be getting close to winter...

What a fricken SOAP opera around here...
Big Grin LOL...
I know I know, groan... Razz
But I couldn't resist.

You guys down south have a happy Thanksgiving now eh!
Cheers,
Jon


___________________________

Simple schematic for a pump and heater control with a high limit
Sensor for the biodiesel/glycerin layer
November 26, 2009, 09:31 AM
freesoul
What did I miss? I haven't seen any personal attacks in this section, I understand there may have been one post that was deleted but I'm not sure if it contained a personal attack or just a strongly worded opinion.

Graydon- I have yet to see a moderator step in also so I can only assume it was an opinion that somehow offended you or you perceived as an attack on you somehow. Or maybe I'm wrong, not sure because the post was deleted. Confused

I don't see any need for 3 subforums of a subforum myself.



November 26, 2009, 07:26 PM
Jimboto
quote:
Originally posted by Graydon Blair:
In it's purest form, the soap we've discussed around these parts comes from
1) Biodiesel By-Product Glycerin
2) A catalyst, and
3) Some Water.

Last time I checked, Biodiesel Glycerin is derived from the synthetic process of chemically altering triglycerides. In fact, we use *GASP* Methanol and *GASP* Lye or Potassium Hydroxide that have been synthetically produced. In many cases the methanol comes from a petroleum product.

So enough with calling Soap "natural" or "synthetic" or "organic".
It's a synthetic, man made product! We make it through a very chemical intensive process!
Get over it!
-Graydon
Thanks for the warning Graydon. I have been thinking about buying one of your glycerine soap kits as a Christmas present for my wife. I did not know that the glycerine soap you are making still contains methanol and lye. That does not sound very safe to me so I think I will have to look for something else.
November 26, 2009, 09:53 PM
Rick K
Just for the record Jimboto.
There is no methanol left in the glycerin that is in the kit.
The glycerin has also been fully saponified using the correct SAP value.

I am not sure how Graydon's post indicated that there was still methanol in the glycerin. Or how the kit would even be mentioned in a post defining ground rules for the soap forum.

I am fairly sure that Graydon meant that methanol itself is from derived a petroleum product.

Again... NO METHANOL left in the glycerin for the kits.

So if you were thinking about one for your wife it's a great value. The kit makes 50 bars of soap for about $30. That's about .60 per bar for a nice hard bar of soap. Not to mention the extras you are left with for your next batch. If you want one before Christmas you should order one soon, they are going pretty quickly.


-Rick

http://www.knicenclean.com your single-most largest free BDG soaping content on the internet.
SAP Testing, Ingredient Properties, Soap Glossary and Recipes just to name a few.

Making Biodiesel Byproduct Soap Learn how to use your biodiesel byproducts to make great bar and liquid soap!!!

"Closing the loop on biodiesel production one bar at a time!"

Beware of the Dunning–Kruger effect.
November 27, 2009, 10:13 AM
dukegrad98
quote:
Originally posted by Graydon Blair:
dukegrad98
Points taken and appreciated.


What points? It appears that this is [now] my first post to the thread. Roll Eyes This kind of protectionist moderating is usually the beginning of the end for a forum.

Cheers, John
November 27, 2009, 12:47 PM
hooknline
FWIW..I just watched the downfall of another forum form overmoderation and splitting the forums into too many subsections. You thin the content too much and people get tired of looking all over the place for the info they want. my .02
November 27, 2009, 01:46 PM
Sloginphizz
quote:
Graydon said,
In fact, we use *GASP* Methanol and *GASP* Lye or Potassium Hydroxide that have been synthetically produced...
In it's purest form, the soap we've discussed around these parts comes from
1) Biodiesel By-Product Glycerin
2) A catalyst, and
3) Some Water.
Just to clear up a misconception you have, Sodium hydroxide and Potassium hydroxide are both called lye. In fact the lye produced by running water through ashes the way Grandma supposedly made soap is potassium hydroxide.

What are you calling a catalyst?
November 27, 2009, 04:39 PM
freesoul
I'm still not sure I see a reason for any additional rules for this subforum that are not in effect for the whole forum..... namely no personal attacks. At any rate, warnings should be given and not simply posts deleted that way everything is above board. Personal attacks are usually apparent to everyone. Confused



November 27, 2009, 05:00 PM
Jon Heron
quote:
Originally posted by hooknline:
FWIW..I just watched the downfall of another forum form overmoderation and splitting the forums into too many subsections. You thin the content too much and people get tired of looking all over the place for the info they want. my .02

Yep that and protectionism has been the downfall of many a great forum.
Editing posts with no message, indication or reason for the edit is just plain disrespectful and inconsiderate also.
Jon


___________________________

Simple schematic for a pump and heater control with a high limit
Sensor for the biodiesel/glycerin layer
November 27, 2009, 06:36 PM
buckeyebiodiesel
quote:
Originally posted by Jon Heron:
What a fricken SOAP opera around here...
Big Grin LOL...


That made me laugh Big Grin

As far as this topic...
Im not sure what to say, I joined this board because of the way it promoted the free exchange of ideas and how to make our hobby more enjoyable and easier in all of its aspects (including soap making).

I don't think we should have a 'sub' set of rules because there are a few differences amongst a couple members.

Free exchange of Knowledge and our personal Experiences with our hobby is one of the greatest benifits of this forum and as long as everyone is here for those reasons we all win!