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what's going wrong here?
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I keep getting batches that won't hit proper 'trace' and have curd like results rather than a nice creamy consistent blend. This is just using canola and no other ingredients. I did use an immersion blender but it burnt up on the first batch so now I use a paint stirrer. Maybe the stirrer doen't beat up the small globs? Or the temp is off? Maybe my lye ,water mix isn't at the right temp? I can't figure this out?
 
Location: western new york | Registered: November 19, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Heat,
Are you using NaOH BDG?

A few things that could be going on...

If you are using too much lye it will cause a curdled layer on top with a nice liquid layer on the bottom. If after cooking your pH is about 10 that is most likely what is happening.

If you have little "chunks" sort of like drop noodles then the soap is not dissolving back into the glycerin. This can happen with BDG that has a glycerin ratio very low in soaps and high in glycerin. To deal with this you must melt the soaps back into the mix. Somewhere around 200*F or just above will melt the soaps back into solution.

Unfortunately all BDG is not created equal. Different kinds of oils act differently, a broad range of SAP values and different glycerin ratios. Other things can affect your BDG as well such as, 5% pre-wash, Caustic stripping, Demething the biodiesel and BDG together, all of these can change how the BDG acts when you make your soap.

Once you identify these things it's easy to formulate a recipe that custom fits your glycerin.


Any pics of what you are seeing?


-Rick

http://www.knicenclean.com your single-most largest free BDG soaping content on the internet.
SAP Testing, Ingredient Properties, Soap Glossary and Recipes just to name a few.

Making Biodiesel Byproduct Soap Learn how to use your biodiesel byproducts to make great bar and liquid soap!!!

"Closing the loop on biodiesel production one bar at a time!"

Beware of the Dunning–Kruger effect.
 
Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: April 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Any pics of what you are seeing?
Rick, I think Santa will bring me the crock pot you recommended in a few days,which I hope will get a handle on temperature control.
For this batch I didn't take any pics,but I'll try if it happens again.
This batch had no BDG ,its straight canola oil. I think the temp went over 200F which I think and from what you said make the oils go into solution. Even after it cooled to 100F it wouldn't go to trace. So I reheated it and still had no success,but when it cooled down,80% formed into a curd with oil on top. I was able to blend and then it setup and I was able to pour it into a mold. Its still softer than what I think it should be,but maybe it'll cure with time. I'm treating like cold-processed soap.
I'm not clear of the benefits of hot or cold processing,just that hot processed soap is ready within a few days where as cold processed may take a month to cure.
 
Location: western new york | Registered: November 19, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Heat,

Canola is very high in Oleic acid and a lot of linoleic acid. The soap will be soft for quite some time. The oleic will harden over time, however the linoleic will not.

A bar soap made from only canola has an INS value of under 70. A hard bar of soap has an INS value of at least 161. This is one thing I have been working on with the glycerin ratio and glycerin profile of our BDG.

If you made a 50% canola and 50% coconut oil soap it should be pretty hard and loads of lather. INS will be marginal at 162. Coconut oil can be a bit drying... You could try 50% canola 25% lard and 25% coconut oil. Slightly lower INS but should harden over time because of the oleic in canola.

There is a texture difference between cold process and hot process soap. Hot process with a low solvent ratio can be a bit rough in texture. Cold process ends up smoother. However if you add enough glycerin then the hot processed soap moves toward being transparent and can be very smooth.

Anyway... Back to your issue. Usually if you have a curdling soap it is because of an excess of lye, the pH will tell you that. However if you are processing at temperatures above 160*F the curdling could just be run-away saponification towards the gel stage -- quite normal. Again pH will tell you a ton about that.

If you get it again pictures will help a ton, there are subtle difference in the appearance of the curdling. If it is from too much lye it is more floaty and cottage cheese. Saponification is more like Vaseline with suspended partials.

You can use the KNC Soap Calculator to help you work out a recipe.

You can also use the KNC SAP test on your canola oil if you need to get a SAP. But the SAP for canola oil should be 132 for NaOH.


-Rick

http://www.knicenclean.com your single-most largest free BDG soaping content on the internet.
SAP Testing, Ingredient Properties, Soap Glossary and Recipes just to name a few.

Making Biodiesel Byproduct Soap Learn how to use your biodiesel byproducts to make great bar and liquid soap!!!

"Closing the loop on biodiesel production one bar at a time!"

Beware of the Dunning–Kruger effect.
 
Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: April 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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You can also use the KNC SAP test on your canola oil if you need to get a SAP. But the SAP for canola oil should be 132 for NaOH.

I used .132 with a superfat value of 95%, or actually .125. Maybe a 5% reduction in lye isn't a good thing to do with canola. I need to work on a SAP value for some NaOH BDG and then try a blend ,possibly with some tallow.
 
Location: western new york | Registered: November 19, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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heatbeater, i think i have had the same thing happen to me, but it was when i was trying to make soap out of pure oil. I think i had it happen when i used 100% tallow to make some bars and also 100% coconut oil. What happened to me was that both batches looked like they hit trace, however being a bonehead i thought i would hot process the stuff on my kitchen stove no crock pot no double boiler and not diluted with extra water, only the amount i found off of the ponte verde SAP chart, i think its 7oz water for every 16oz of fat i think.

Anyway the stuff looked like it hit trace, but i didn't pour it into the mold immediately, not long after, it split into two layers, pure clear oil on top, and white curd or pebble looking stuff on the bottom, i mixed and mixed but couldn't get the two layers to mix. So i cooled it and it coagulated back together but never got to that creamy tracelike consistency. It seemed like above 180 for too long and it would split, cool it back to 150-160 and it would gel back up. Might have something to do with amount of water you dilute with, or most likely the types of oils...

I don't think ive had it happen when i was making a glycerin bar though, only pure oils.

PS Rick you are the man, love the soap guide, love the soap I make with it. I use 70% glycerin, 30% recycled tallow. The tallow that is made from meat scraps and fish heads and old sausages that comes from a rendering company...yes Im hardcore hahaha.
 
Registered: June 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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AZBiodsl,
Thank you for the kind words Smile

Sounds like you can market your soap as Omega3 soap because of the fish oil!

BTW the floating oil on top would be an indication that you have false trace. This happens when the soap looks thick, but is actually due to a temperature drop or fatty acid clumping. I like to soap at about 180*F and hot process. But you can cold process any saturated oil at about 160*F, just keep it at that temp until you get trace then you can pour.

The water for bar soap with whole oils is right around 33% of the oils or 2xLye. I like using the 2xLye measurement. It changes when you get into using BDG because of the glycerin content. Depending on your glycerin ratio you can short the water to a certain extent. The higher the glycerin part of the glycerin ratio the less water you will need.

I am still playing a bit with the KNC glycerin ratio test but I will be blogging about it and adding it to the book here in the near future.


-Rick

http://www.knicenclean.com your single-most largest free BDG soaping content on the internet.
SAP Testing, Ingredient Properties, Soap Glossary and Recipes just to name a few.

Making Biodiesel Byproduct Soap Learn how to use your biodiesel byproducts to make great bar and liquid soap!!!

"Closing the loop on biodiesel production one bar at a time!"

Beware of the Dunning–Kruger effect.
 
Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: April 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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But you can cold process any saturated oil at about 160*F, just keep it at that temp until you get trace then you can pour.

I've tried room temperature for unsaturated oils(canola ,olive,corn and soybean) with varying results. (i'm not using any biodiesel glycerin) From Rick's advice hotter temps keep the oils in solution and its hard to get trace and I've had the same experience. But room temperatures don't seem to work much better for me. I've came to "weak trace" after a couple of hours and poured it in a mold hoping overnight it'll set up,but in the morning it's still very soft. So,then I take it out of the mold and reheat to @160 F and blend and it gets firmer and pastey and repour in the mold and then I'm OK. Maybe I expect the oils to go to trace to soon and need to wait 8-10 hours for it to make final trace.
The only time I had a batch make decent trace was using evaporated goat milk with ground oatmeal. I use the recommended sap values for the individual oils. Olive oil .135,soybean .136 , corn oil .136, canola oil .132. I do discount the lye by 4%. Does anybody else have similiar problems??
 
Location: western new york | Registered: November 19, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Heat,
How are you mixing your soap?

If you are not using a stick blender it can take up to 2 hours for trace, if it occurs at all.

If you are using a stick blender it should trace in about 15-20 minutes.

If you are not using BDG there is no soap to help "seed" the batch. The reason our BDG soaps trace so easily is that they are almost completely saponified.

If you do not have a stick blender you can use a regular blender or kitchen mixer.

If you are using a stick blender you could be using too much water. When not using BDG you have to be careful not to use too much water up front. Water should be about 33% of your oils or 2 time your lye weight.


-Rick

http://www.knicenclean.com your single-most largest free BDG soaping content on the internet.
SAP Testing, Ingredient Properties, Soap Glossary and Recipes just to name a few.

Making Biodiesel Byproduct Soap Learn how to use your biodiesel byproducts to make great bar and liquid soap!!!

"Closing the loop on biodiesel production one bar at a time!"

Beware of the Dunning–Kruger effect.
 
Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: April 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I havealso wondered if the problem is with the mixing,I use a paint mixer attached to an electric drill.
Another thing I'll check is the accuracy of my scale ,but the soap finally sets up if unmolded and heated,blended like I said before so I doubt if its a lye issue,but I could be wrong.
One thing that puzzles me is I tried making straight biodiesel glycerin soap and my sap said 17%. So for a batch of 2285 grams of BDG it would take 55 grams of lye(17 x.00146 = 54.8) ,but this batch turned out soft,also. This seems like a very low amount but like Rick says its almost saponified.
I do use the 2x lye for the water amount.
How long should it take for cold process soap to set up in the mold? Why do I have to reheat and blend the next day to get the batch to finally setup?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: heatbeater,
 
Location: western new york | Registered: November 19, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Heat,

With your no-BDG soap I think the mixing might be an issue, It takes a lot of agitation to get saponification started. Or it takes time. Once there is soap in the mix the process goes much quicker. Which makes sense, once you have soap it will lock onto the oils keeping the oils in solution while the oil gets saponified. I also think this is why your day after is working so well.

With your BDG soap the hardness of the soap will depend on the properties of the oil used to make biodiesel with. If you are still using the sample you sent me, the soap will be softer, more like Jell-O or rubber without adding anything to the soap. I found that about 20% hardening ingredients can give your BDG a nice hard bar of soap. I would use stearic, myristic, lauric, coconut oil and/or palm kernel oil.

Water at 2 X lye is not quite enough if you are using a large amount of BDG, nor is using 33% of the BDG. I would suggest using the KNC SAP Calculator to determine the correct water when using only BDG or BDG as an ingredient. I have built in a function to the calculator to determine the water for soap that uses BDG as an ingredient.

If you are not using BDG just take the weight of your caustic and multiply it by 2 for bar soaps and by 3 for liquid soaps. Or you can use the weight of the oils. Water will be about 33% of your oils for bar soap and up to 40% for your liquid soaps.

Can you post some pictures of your process and the soaps? That might help out a bunch.


-Rick

http://www.knicenclean.com your single-most largest free BDG soaping content on the internet.
SAP Testing, Ingredient Properties, Soap Glossary and Recipes just to name a few.

Making Biodiesel Byproduct Soap Learn how to use your biodiesel byproducts to make great bar and liquid soap!!!

"Closing the loop on biodiesel production one bar at a time!"

Beware of the Dunning–Kruger effect.
 
Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: April 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Can you post some pictures of your process and the soaps? That might help out a bunch.

Rick , thanks for the advice! I'm working on the pics idea just can't get them filed in the computer right. My son will help me. One of the books I took out of the local library explains cold process soaping but makes trace in a matter of hours. The mixing is getting to look more like the culprit ,in the book she does use a stick blender. I did buy one last spring,but I burnt it up in 5 minutes ,lol. I've came to the conclusion that the batch needs to sit overnight before molding ,at least until I buy a stick blender.
Yes, the biodiesel glycerin is the same I sent you and I think you said it was a sap 14. The reason why I said 17 is I accidently added too much lye and it calculated to 17. i wanted to see what an overdose of lye would do. It is like rubber!!
I've made some nice soap the only thing with remolding and heating is the soap tends to have air pockets in it.
I tried adding a little cinnamin to the non-bdg soap(1/2 cup / 2200 grams of veg oil) and it actually turns out darker than the biodiesel glycerin soap.
 
Location: western new york | Registered: November 19, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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